maintaining PH

melonheadorion

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the underlying reason for this post is because i have a montipora digitata that doesnt extend polyps. its growing, and still alive, but the polyps do not extend outside of their skin. the LFS that i bought it from, suggests that it might be from PH stability. based on everythiing else, its the only thing that makes sense.

my ph during the day is 8.1 or 8.2 (im using a red sea kit, so you have to rely on color matching. its over 8.0 for sure based on colors).
just before lights on, my ph was at about 7.6-7.8. again, having to rely on color matching, but it was definately below 8.0 based on colors.
my main issue with PH is that there is a swing between night and day, naturally, but i want to reduce the big swing that there is between night and day.

calcium-450
alk 9.5
temp 78
salinity 1.025
mag-1440
nitrate 7-10
phosphate- 0-.02
ammonia-0
all of the above stats are quite stable. these same readings are what i see for the last 4 weeks, at the least.

ive tried, for extended periods of time, through different par levels, and it doesnt change the outcome. lower pars, it has a better look to it, but not full extension as it should.

since my only thought that could cause an issue, would be the PH stability, going off of someone that has a beautiful coral shop, and seems to really know his stuff, i want to at least try doing as he suggests, since it makes sense enough to me.

with all of that said, im running a sump setup, and have my skimmer line running outside for fresh air. i have fair surface agitation, so any gas exchange should be good, assuming that the co2 in this room isnt too high for good exchange. during the summer, keeping a window open wont be an option as it would lead to temps being too high (dont have central a/c, so i have to run a portable a/c unit to keep this room cool-without it, ambient temps would be 90, so you can imagine tank tems), so what the setup is right now, is probably as good as its going to be, but im not against adding things to help.
as an example i got an insane deal on a brand new reef octopus kalkstirrer for 60 bucks. whether i will add it, maybe not, but i have it in case i find that i need it.
co2 scrubber-if i have the airline for the skimmer running outside, i really shouldnt need a co2 scrubber, right? unless of course outside has high co2.

i have a refugium, but i havent actually used it for chaeto growth, and i know that will help with some co2, if i run it during the evening.
i can also increase my base alkalinity a bit too, but i feel that 9.5 is a good point to be at. raising alk should increase PH, but it still wont alleviate teh swing.

i guess, with what i do have, what would others suggest? im open for ideas and suggestions with my current setup.
 

Spare time

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I'd be more concerned with the phosphate level your tank has.

What are you using to test pH?
 
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melonheadorion

melonheadorion

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I'd be more concerned with the phosphate level your tank has.

What are you using to test pH?
red sea PH test kit.

Phosphate is nearly undedectable with the naked eye using the nyos kit. if it were over.1, then i would be concerned with it, but it is somewhere between 0 and .02, and i say that because i know there is some phosphate, but so hard to tell with a color chart, that i know its not above .02. unless of course, youre suggesting that i should have more phosphate

.02 is the lowest level that you can check for with a nyos kit, other than 0
 
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melonheadorion

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im coming to the end of my color coded PH tester, test solution, and it seems the only company that does a standalone PH tester is salifert. red sea makes it of course, but its part of the ph/alkaline combo. i dont need the alkaline test, because i have a new one already, so to just avoid overpurhcasing things that i dont really need right now, im thinking of maybe a digital tester. it will obviously help with trying to determine color.
i guess i ultimately want to, or at least, would love to moving to automation/controllers, eventually. i would really like to get into keeping more SPS than what i already have, but if its truly a stability thing, controllers like the apex, where i can see a historical graph, would be very useful. at the moment, pH is really the only thing i cant test accurately via test kit, or as accurate that would be more desireable.
what would you folks recommend? a handheld pH tester? or just start working on starting a controller setup like the apex, and piece it together module by module? in the end, having a controller would help keep things stable of course, by being able to use it to auto dose whatever. from what i saw, it would allow me to setup an easier way to schedule things to be on/off, rather than a bunch of seperate controllable wifi outlets, or whatever.

p.s. due to weather, i had not had my airline for my skimmer running outside, but since weather is getting nicer, i have run it outside, so my ph from this morning, about 20 minutes after lights on was about 8.2 (again, judging off of colors) and then took another reading an hour and a half ago, and it was 8.1. im going to run another test tonight, and again tomorrow morning to see what kind of up/down i get, but eventually i will run out of PH test solution, so im hoping for what everyones suggestions would be for near future testing
 

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im coming to the end of my color coded PH tester, test solution, and it seems the only company that does a standalone PH tester is salifert. red sea makes it of course, but its part of the ph/alkaline combo. i dont need the alkaline test, because i have a new one already, so to just avoid overpurhcasing things that i dont really need right now, im thinking of maybe a digital tester. it will obviously help with trying to determine color.
i guess i ultimately want to, or at least, would love to moving to automation/controllers, eventually. i would really like to get into keeping more SPS than what i already have, but if its truly a stability thing, controllers like the apex, where i can see a historical graph, would be very useful. at the moment, pH is really the only thing i cant test accurately via test kit, or as accurate that would be more desireable.
what would you folks recommend? a handheld pH tester? or just start working on starting a controller setup like the apex, and piece it together module by module? in the end, having a controller would help keep things stable of course, by being able to use it to auto dose whatever. from what i saw, it would allow me to setup an easier way to schedule things to be on/off, rather than a bunch of seperate controllable wifi outlets, or whatever.

p.s. due to weather, i had not had my airline for my skimmer running outside, but since weather is getting nicer, i have run it outside, so my ph from this morning, about 20 minutes after lights on was about 8.2 (again, judging off of colors) and then took another reading an hour and a half ago, and it was 8.1. im going to run another test tonight, and again tomorrow morning to see what kind of up/down i get, but eventually i will run out of PH test solution, so im hoping for what everyones suggestions would be for near future testing
Hanna makes a pH tester and a calibration kit to confirm it’s accuracy.
 

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Your pH has a day/night cycle where it should rise in the day and fall at night. If you test at different times during a day you will get different numbers. You need to know the high and low points. Mine occur at about 8 am and 6 pm.
 

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Yes, get a handheld pH tester. I haven't had the best luck with pens - they drift too much and stop working too frequently. I've much better luck with the PinPoint pH monitor that has the corded pH probe. It's a bit old school but it work. It's about $95 but it'll last a long time. The drop check are not accurate but will show the swing. You may not have a big pH problem (7.6 is a tad low, but don't react to that until you can measure it more accurately)
 

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Hanna makes a pH tester and a calibration kit to confirm it’s accuracy.

If you mean their pH checker HI 780, then just to clarify, like all Hanna checker calibration vials, the calibration kit does not confirm accuracy. It is not a true standard that you check the actual procedure.
It merely confirms proper operation of the electronics. If the reagents or procedures are off for any reason, the results can be inaccurate.
 
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melonheadorion

melonheadorion

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I agree with @Spare time, most likely phosphate being too low. Especially at an alk of 9.5 dKH. The higher the alk and light level, the more nutrients you need.

Do you have other corals and if so how are they looking?
most of my stuff are softies-zoas, shrooms, leathers, etc. i have a torch in there as well, and a couple SPS. all are doing well IMO.
if i need to raise phosphates, how much? ive always heard so much that you want to keep nutrients fairly low, especially for SPS.
 
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melonheadorion

melonheadorion

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as you will see, the digitata is in there. you can see that its alive. you can see that the polyps seem to want to come out, but they just reach the edge of the skeleton and dont go further. everything else you see, you will see is going good.
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you can see in this last picture that this SPS has insane polyp extension. if not, i will vouch for it. this one is the epitome of what i would hope the red digitata would look like.
 
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Your pH has a day/night cycle where it should rise in the day and fall at night. If you test at different times during a day you will get different numbers. You need to know the high and low points. Mine occur at about 8 am and 6 pm.
since running my airline outside, which is about 2 days ago. i have tested it in the morning, afternoon, and evening.
yesterday--
8am-8.3
1pm-8.2
8pm-8.3

today-
8am-8.2
1pm (just a minute ago) 8.2

so, it seems that, by default, and not adding anything, my pH is stable, or at least should be stable enough. assuming that the color coded test kit isnt way off, but ive tested at extreme opposite times to make sure there isnt a change, and i would be convinced enough that it isnt changing too much right now. during the winter, i will have to maybe think of a way to supplement the inability to run a hose out of the window, but for now it should be ok. im going to test at midnight again today, to see what it does.
 

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You can buy a digital pH pen and calibration fluid for pretty cheap, if you care. They are accurate enough.

When you get a chance, just air out your house. All that you have to do is exchange the air, not cool down the house. A few minutes with a strong fan can do this. I know that Green Bay is cold, and I live in Colorado, so I know... Think of it as when one of your gross buddies cuts a nasty fart in a car... you roll down the windows to get the fart out for a few seconds, but in a minute or two the new air is quickly heated back up and you don't even notice. We have a 10000 CFM plus attic fan and a few minutes on even a 30 degree afternoon does the job and the house temp barely moves since the walls, furniture, etc. are warms still. You don't have to keep the windows open for like days or anything. Any little bit helps. A little bit every few days can do wonders. This has benefits for more than just reef tank pH, too.
 

Dennis Cartier

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Ok, so you have your pH moved up, let's see if that helps the digi's mood. It is true that a lot of people recommended keeping phosphate as low as possible in the past, especially for SPS. Now a days, it is more common for the SPS guys to target a higher phosphate range, often of 0.10 ppm. It helps a lot with growth and health to give them ample phosphate.

I like to be between 0.08 - 0.12 ppm, but my tank is sitting at 0.03 ppm as of recently, so I will be looking to bump it back into range with a high phosphate food like Reef Roids.

All your softies and LPS look great and appear to be happy. Are you running GAC by the way? I am wondering if you might have a bit too much organics in the water for the digi. Softies and LPS don't mind organics, and almost seem to prefer them, but SPS do not care for them. This is the challenge of running a mixed reef. Finding a happy medium for the water quality to keep all families happy.

If also looks like you have it fairly low in the tank. SPS prefer way more light than most LPS or softies, so moving it higher may help as well.
 
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melonheadorion

melonheadorion

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Ok, so you have your pH moved up, let's see if that helps the digi's mood. It is true that a lot of people recommended keeping phosphate as low as possible in the past, especially for SPS. Now a days, it is more common for the SPS guys to target a higher phosphate range, often of 0.10 ppm. It helps a lot with growth and health to give them ample phosphate.

I like to be between 0.08 - 0.12 ppm, but my tank is sitting at 0.03 ppm as of recently, so I will be looking to bump it back into range with a high phosphate food like Reef Roids.

All your softies and LPS look great and appear to be happy. Are you running GAC by the way? I am wondering if you might have a bit too much organics in the water for the digi. Softies and LPS don't mind organics, and almost seem to prefer them, but SPS do not care for them. This is the challenge of running a mixed reef. Finding a happy medium for the water quality to keep all families happy.

If also looks like you have it fairly low in the tank. SPS prefer way more light than most LPS or softies, so moving it higher may help as well.
i moved it lower because it seemed to react better to lower light. if i move it up to the 150+ range, all of the polyps that you see, just seem to disappear. thats regardless of flow. i could have it in a spot of very low flow, medium to high flow, or where its at, which is about a medium flow. where its at right now seems to be the best extension, if you want to call it that. i have another piece of this coral that broke off a while back. i have it on a frag, and put it very close to my other SPS which has fully extended polyps, and it doesnt matter. as i mentioned, it actually looks worse than if i keep it in lower par.
i do have some activated carbon in my sump. it isnt fresh. i really need to change it out, to be honest, so with that said, just assume that i dont have any. i would say that the carbon is at least a month old, so its not doing anything
 

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most of my stuff are softies-zoas, shrooms, leathers, etc. i have a torch in there as well, and a couple SPS. all are doing well IMO.
if i need to raise phosphates, how much? ive always heard so much that you want to keep nutrients fairly low, especially for SPS.


I like phosphate between 0.03-0.1 myself
 
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For the original question I use a kalk stirrer/dose pump to keep my PH around 8.2-8.4, and the algae scrubber runs as the lights go down to keep the CO2 intake up. Good luck!
good to know. whether i use the stirrer, or sell it, eventually i will want to do something for calcium/alk maint at some point anyway. the same store i got the stirrer from, is also liquidating an algae scrubber. the scrubber is significantly more expensive, but maybe ill jump on that too
 
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melonheadorion

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i will still give it time to see if the pH fixes anything. i would suspect that i should have already seen some change, which i dont see anythign significant after 2 days. obviously its a bit early, but we will see.
i will throw in some new carbon here shortly to see if that does anythign to help.

at that point, im at a loss, other than increasing phosphate, so i will try to get it up to maybe .05 ish
 

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good to know. whether i use the stirrer, or sell it, eventually i will want to do something for calcium/alk maint at some point anyway. the same store i got the stirrer from, is also liquidating an algae scrubber. the scrubber is significantly more expensive, but maybe ill jump on that too
I'm one of these whackos that thinks PH is the one number you should be chasing or at least managing.
 
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