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Marty's 8' 300g/sump room build. ~750g system
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- Thread starter Mshort03
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crusso1993
7500 Club Member
Thanks for the heads-up on the ICP results link in your post. I did actually think it was an ad of some type and never clicked on it, obviously.
Couple semi-related questions; you said you were going to be bringing your meter home from work to check for stray voltage. Then you had another rash of bad luck and never addressed the voltage again. Did you ever check it out? Also, how are things going with the jacked up peristaltic pump?
Tagging a few other people again for ideas on the aluminum and tin.
@dantimdad
@Sallstrom
@Lasse
@NeverlosT
#reefsquad
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Mshort03
Active Member
I did not bring home the meter, a new set of discouragement had thrown my memory off but I'm making a reminder for tomorrow to bring one. As for the paristaltic pump, I've called brs and also sent 3 emails to coralvue CCd with the dude from brs...all with no response. Guy at brs said he never heard of that problem. So ya idk about that yet.. it's been good for like 5 days. I'm down to 19ml and all is 9 checked tonight. Currently mixing salt to do 90g water change of display system
NY_Caveman
likes words, fish and arbitrary statistics
So typical, you finally have a possible answer and it just leads to new questions.
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Mshort03
Active Member
Lol yep..hopefully were onto something here tho and things will be turning around.
Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
I had a look at the ICP test. Your salinity is a bit high I think. Not super high but a bit. Somewhere someone did a calculator for salinity based on Na, Ca, Mg, B etc from ICP tests. I'll try to find it and post a link later.
Al you might get out with regular GFO. But then you probably need to add phosphate to your tank since your value is low. Perhaps Sn could be removed with GFO as well, I'll have to check some notes on that.
(Usually Fe-based phosphate remover add Ba and remove some Al, and Al-based remover remove some Ba and add a little Al. So they could be used alternately to keep everything in check)
Building a lot with PVC I haven't seen that kind of leaching in six years of Triton ICP testing. So my guess is that the PVC isn't the problem.
You'll probably see if the magnet is bad, they swell and crack. It happens now and then. Saltwater is tough
I would do some water changes, adjust the salinity, make sure I got some PO4 in the water(and NO3), and add a GFO-filter. Then do a new Triton ICP test after a couple of weeks.
Just don't panic over the Al and Sn, sometimes the ICP results are a bit too high and on the next test you'll get a lower value.
I'll do some reading and thinking, might add some stuff later
Al you might get out with regular GFO. But then you probably need to add phosphate to your tank since your value is low. Perhaps Sn could be removed with GFO as well, I'll have to check some notes on that.
(Usually Fe-based phosphate remover add Ba and remove some Al, and Al-based remover remove some Ba and add a little Al. So they could be used alternately to keep everything in check)
Building a lot with PVC I haven't seen that kind of leaching in six years of Triton ICP testing. So my guess is that the PVC isn't the problem.
You'll probably see if the magnet is bad, they swell and crack. It happens now and then. Saltwater is tough
I would do some water changes, adjust the salinity, make sure I got some PO4 in the water(and NO3), and add a GFO-filter. Then do a new Triton ICP test after a couple of weeks.
Just don't panic over the Al and Sn, sometimes the ICP results are a bit too high and on the next test you'll get a lower value.
I'll do some reading and thinking, might add some stuff later
Sallstrom
2500 Club Member
Here's the thread on the calculator for salinity:
www.reef2reef.com
Also, if you get the macro algae to grow again they will probably remove some metals as well. To get them to grow you could try to add nutrients and iodine, manganese and iron.
Your iodine was 0 on the test. I can't say for sure that that is causing the problems, but that is one element I like to add daily or weekly to keep above 0 on the ICP tests. I do add Mn and Fe too, but I like to add stuff.. (most tanks I run are without water changes)
Calculation of salinity from Triton ICP-OES test results
I am very thankfull for that and also checked the values on our showtank already.... and it is working perfectly.... I still need to test for Cl and F with HPLC but I don´t think it will show a big difference. very good work. What is the wavelength range of your instrument? Cl- is easily...
www.reef2reef.com
Also, if you get the macro algae to grow again they will probably remove some metals as well. To get them to grow you could try to add nutrients and iodine, manganese and iron.
Your iodine was 0 on the test. I can't say for sure that that is causing the problems, but that is one element I like to add daily or weekly to keep above 0 on the ICP tests. I do add Mn and Fe too, but I like to add stuff..
(most tanks I run are without water changes)
Your salinity is around 36 psu - a little high. Do you use an Al based remover of P? Do you use NOPOx ?. Your Mo levels indicate NOPOx. These levels together with low PO4 - the cyanobacteria is not a surprise IMO. Your recent NO3 levels?
I have been up to Al levels around 70 µg/l without any problems (that I have noted) and generally - Al is not seen as a toxic substance in SW before but some new findings from Australia indicate that levels over 24 µg/l total Al can affect some sensitive species. Using a iron based GFO can fix that problem.
Toxicity of tin - It seems like inorganic tin and tin ions (In have not read the whole report but I refer to it anyhow) is not toxic iat your levels but if it is in the form of organic tin as TBT - you are in problem.
Sincerely Lasse
I have been up to Al levels around 70 µg/l without any problems (that I have noted) and generally - Al is not seen as a toxic substance in SW before but some new findings from Australia indicate that levels over 24 µg/l total Al can affect some sensitive species. Using a iron based GFO can fix that problem.
Toxicity of tin - It seems like inorganic tin and tin ions (In have not read the whole report but I refer to it anyhow) is not toxic iat your levels but if it is in the form of organic tin as TBT - you are in problem.
Sincerely Lasse
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Mshort03
Active Member
Salinity was high, 36 or 1.027.. I had a refractometer issue couple weeks back which has since been corrected. I do not currently run any no pox nor gfo nor ANY chemical filtration. I am not having any issues with cyano bacterias. I ordered cuprisorb to absorb heavy metals from the water, it will be here saturday. I did not notice any cracking of the magnet. As for pvc I have never heard of it either until recently when researching these elevated levels. Since I've lost so many corals I thought it would be fair to link that to the "elevated" (according to their words) levels of aluminum and tin. If that's not it then I honestly have no idea. Reading all this this morning has only put more questions in my head..
I run the system as simple as I can, no chemical filtration and relying mostly on refugium, with skimmer coming in second.. I normally do minimal water changes as that's what I've had luck with in past, doing them basically when I felt they were needed. I did do a water change lastnight and will be doing a bunch over next month or so to get these "elevated" levels down. I'm sure on normal system pvc does not impact (like with my frag system, it's running perfectly fine) but since I have SO MUCH on the 600 system I thought it could be plausible since I found it mentioned from multiple sources.
My refugium is growing, well my display fuge atleast. 4 or 5 different types of macro are showing growth however my chaeto down in my sump has dwindled almost to nothing, I figure this to be do to the display fuge growing more rapidly. I have not fed any more phyto to system in over 3 weeks. Tested things again last night alk was 9,cal 450, mag 1400 nitrate 8 phos .03 according to red sea pro. The calcium reactor is still running and not causing any spikes.
I guess if I'm not on the correct track with cuprisorb and waterchanges then idk what is...I'm afraid to add gfo because ei dont want to pull all phosphate then have to add phosphate and thus creating just more pieces to the puzzle. I like the KISS method.
I run the system as simple as I can, no chemical filtration and relying mostly on refugium, with skimmer coming in second.. I normally do minimal water changes as that's what I've had luck with in past, doing them basically when I felt they were needed. I did do a water change lastnight and will be doing a bunch over next month or so to get these "elevated" levels down. I'm sure on normal system pvc does not impact (like with my frag system, it's running perfectly fine) but since I have SO MUCH on the 600 system I thought it could be plausible since I found it mentioned from multiple sources.
My refugium is growing, well my display fuge atleast. 4 or 5 different types of macro are showing growth however my chaeto down in my sump has dwindled almost to nothing, I figure this to be do to the display fuge growing more rapidly. I have not fed any more phyto to system in over 3 weeks. Tested things again last night alk was 9,cal 450, mag 1400 nitrate 8 phos .03 according to red sea pro. The calcium reactor is still running and not causing any spikes.
I guess if I'm not on the correct track with cuprisorb and waterchanges then idk what is...I'm afraid to add gfo because ei dont want to pull all phosphate then have to add phosphate and thus creating just more pieces to the puzzle. I like the KISS method.
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crusso1993
7500 Club Member
Ok, so I was thinking about it and I came up with a rather irrational, but possible, cause; that @Dyanna Diaz did some research and discovered that aluminum will screw up a system. Then, because she's so smart, she figured to add a little tin just to throw you off her trail. I mean, think about it, a woman who loves you sees you pour about $25k into a fish tank. All the while imagining what a nice ring even half of $25k would buy. You know the saying, "Hell hath no fury..."
This is all speculation, of course.
(And joking)
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Mshort03
Active Member
Ok, so I was thinking about it and I came up with a rather irrational, but possible, cause; that @Dyanna Diaz did some research and discovered that aluminum will screw up a system. Then, because she's so smart, she figured to add a little tin just to throw you off her trail. I mean, think about it, a woman who loves you sees you pour about $25k into a fish tank. All the while imagining what a nice ring even half of $25k would buy. You know the saying, "Hell hath no fury..."
This is all speculation, of course.
(And joking)
UK what I think you're actually onto something there.. and things did happen to go bad starting when her mom was house sitting, I mean I had proportioned bags of food and cameras on everything so they DEFF could have tampered.. They probably have some strategy laid out without my knowing, mind explaining yourself @Dyanna Diaz ?
Dyanna Diaz
New Member
Ok, so I was thinking about it and I came up with a rather irrational, but possible, cause; that @Dyanna Diaz did some research and discovered that aluminum will screw up a system. Then, because she's so smart, she figured to add a little tin just to throw you off her trail. I mean, think about it, a woman who loves you sees you pour about $25k into a fish tank. All the while imagining what a nice ring even half of $25k would buy. You know the saying, "Hell hath no fury..."
This is all speculation, of course.
(And joking)
Ya’ll caught me! Nailed it right on the head! At least what @crusso1993 said about me being so smart
Sorry - I thought I saw some Cyanobacteria mats in your photos. I do not think you are on the wrong path with cuprisorb - at least it will take away the metals and solve that worry.
Can you veryfy your PO4 figures with a Hanna Checker?
Is this the first ICP test you have done?
Sincerely Lasse
Can you veryfy your PO4 figures with a Hanna Checker?
Is this the first ICP test you have done?
Sincerely Lasse
crusso1993
7500 Club Member
Ya’ll caught me! Nailed it right on the head! At least what @crusso1993 said about me being so smart
I did happen to notice she mentioned the "being smart" part but nothing of the "loving you" part @Mshort03 !
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Mshort03
Active Member
I dont see much cyano, the pics were low quality, deff nothing I'd call a "problem".
As for icp it is my first test on this system but my 3rd overall (other two were on old 90g system)
I figured I'd send off for another one in couple months to see what changes have been made. Only problem left I think is trying to find source of said metals.. if its pvc ok then were "done" once we absorb. If it isnt that theory then theres still something lingering that would need to be dealt with. With nearly all new equipment, and old equipment checked..idk what it could be
As for checking against hanna I do not have one, but I have tested against other batches of red sea titrant to make sure mine were not compromised
About the PVC. How old is the pipe system? I have been working with large - and I mean large - PVC systems. Never seen any problems. Theoretical - there is some softeners or release agents that can be out in the water when the pipes are new - however never been out for it. There can be another reason fog the higher readings - a fault! I am normally not see a single value as a problem - however If I see strange values I more than 1 test - I react
Sincerely Lasse
Sincerely Lasse
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Mshort03
Active Member
System is about 5 months old. Problems started a month ago. I only mentioned the pvc thing because I had read it a few places, I found it odd as well but I'm just exploring all possibilities. So let's go down path of these "elevated" levels are fine, the pvc didnt leach anything..so then ehat caused this event? That's what I keep scratching my head to. I figured these tests results were pointing in a direction but you seem to think they dont, and I respect all opinions, I'm just trying to save my suffering reef :/ my frag system, which had a much less stable start is doing good, showing growth and no problems have come up with it so far. I feel like all I have to work on is theories and that makes me feel helpless like how do I stop it, when has it "stopped" when do I feel safe to put more coral in? All these things are dependent on someeee kind of answer I feel. This is my first "crash" type event I've dealt with and while it isnt a total loss, I'm easily over the 5k in death at this point and I'm not seeing signs of stopping. It's just this very slow, gradual decline overall.
I know that even the best testsystem has errors - therefore I normally not react if I get unnormal reading in one test. I wait till had been confirmed in the next test if my system looks like it going well. In your case - you have an issue and - on order to be safe - you should probably act. Cuprisorb could be a good tool. Use that and observe. Send in a new ICP after one month. Try to eract cyano bacteria if you see some - they can sometimes send out toxins.
A little bit higher PO4 can also be important.
Sincerely Lasse
A little bit higher PO4 can also be important.
Sincerely Lasse
NeverlosT
SPS nut
A few comments and thoughts (as always, just food for thought):
1. Macroalgae - your lack of iodine is directly responsible for this imo. Macro is very iodine hungry and will deplete it from the water column and then stop growing and die back. Dosing lugols iodine even just a drop or two a day will fix this, and iodine decays in your system so overdosing iodine is unlikely. WARNING though, Iodine will make ALL macro grow, not just the macro in your fuge, so if you have valonia or something in your DT and nothing eating it, it will grow a lot too. If I recall correctly, growing macroalgae also can remove heavy metals from water, though I'd need to re-read which types have that effect, I think filamentous freshwater macro does...
2. Your Aluminum and Tin - Both of these are interesting, but I doubt that either is the source of your issue. If I recall correctly Aluminum and Tin need to be present in very high quantities to become toxic to most sea life (I think there are a few studies on this). You could try to drag them down with GFO, but that will impact your already fluctuating Alkalinity. I personally would just reduce via your planned water changes, the solution to pollution is dilution! Then again, it could be your salt that has the metals in it... Most of the time when people have AL in their water it is from MarinePure blocks (I had this, but no impacts from it) or their salt (I think).
3. Problems: I really doubt PVC is doing anything bad to your tank, nor do I think the AL and Tin are your issue. I honestly think a bad situation was kicked off by the big initial alk swing and perhaps additional later swings, and the unbalance in nutrients that followed.
I think if I were in your shoes, I would stick to the plan. Remove dead stuff, do regular 15 or 20% water changes, change your filter socks, clean your skimmer, and watch stability return. The only change I might suggest (if you still have high nutrients) is to sparingly dose a drop or so of lugols from time to time to get your macro rolling again.
Edit: Wanted to add. Even if PVC or something was the polluter, you aren't going to re-plumb your whole system and you'd never really be able to find the source, so the only solution would be water changes to dilute the pollutant. So at this point, the cause is really less important than getting back on track with stability.
Good luck!
additional questions/random thoughts: where does your skimmer draw air from? Are there any aerosol cleaners regularly used around your tank? Does ceiling dust or an AC unit blow onto/into your water anywhere? Did you ever get confirmation that stray voltage is negligible (a multimeter will tell you this fast)? If you suspect your salt, you could mix a batch and send a sample into ICP testing to see whats in there.
Also (if you want), take your cell phone, record a short but detailed system walkthrough of your system with narration, put it on youtube, and link it here. Lighting, flow, filtration, aquascape, animals, water change, supplements used, all of it. Then we can have a look and perhaps see something that was missed before? Would only take a few minutes.
1. Macroalgae - your lack of iodine is directly responsible for this imo. Macro is very iodine hungry and will deplete it from the water column and then stop growing and die back. Dosing lugols iodine even just a drop or two a day will fix this, and iodine decays in your system so overdosing iodine is unlikely. WARNING though, Iodine will make ALL macro grow, not just the macro in your fuge, so if you have valonia or something in your DT and nothing eating it, it will grow a lot too. If I recall correctly, growing macroalgae also can remove heavy metals from water, though I'd need to re-read which types have that effect, I think filamentous freshwater macro does...
2. Your Aluminum and Tin - Both of these are interesting, but I doubt that either is the source of your issue. If I recall correctly Aluminum and Tin need to be present in very high quantities to become toxic to most sea life (I think there are a few studies on this). You could try to drag them down with GFO, but that will impact your already fluctuating Alkalinity. I personally would just reduce via your planned water changes, the solution to pollution is dilution! Then again, it could be your salt that has the metals in it... Most of the time when people have AL in their water it is from MarinePure blocks (I had this, but no impacts from it) or their salt (I think).
3. Problems: I really doubt PVC is doing anything bad to your tank, nor do I think the AL and Tin are your issue. I honestly think a bad situation was kicked off by the big initial alk swing and perhaps additional later swings, and the unbalance in nutrients that followed.
I think if I were in your shoes, I would stick to the plan. Remove dead stuff, do regular 15 or 20% water changes, change your filter socks, clean your skimmer, and watch stability return. The only change I might suggest (if you still have high nutrients) is to sparingly dose a drop or so of lugols from time to time to get your macro rolling again.
Edit: Wanted to add. Even if PVC or something was the polluter, you aren't going to re-plumb your whole system and you'd never really be able to find the source, so the only solution would be water changes to dilute the pollutant. So at this point, the cause is really less important than getting back on track with stability.
Good luck!
additional questions/random thoughts: where does your skimmer draw air from? Are there any aerosol cleaners regularly used around your tank? Does ceiling dust or an AC unit blow onto/into your water anywhere? Did you ever get confirmation that stray voltage is negligible (a multimeter will tell you this fast)? If you suspect your salt, you could mix a batch and send a sample into ICP testing to see whats in there.
Also (if you want), take your cell phone, record a short but detailed system walkthrough of your system with narration, put it on youtube, and link it here. Lighting, flow, filtration, aquascape, animals, water change, supplements used, all of it. Then we can have a look and perhaps see something that was missed before? Would only take a few minutes.
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Mshort03
Active Member
To answer some things @NeverlosT ..
As for the macro, the display fuge seems to be growing. Not alarming rates but noticable growth, the chaeto is dying off, almost completely. I was thinking that would be due to the display fuge. I've never dosed iodine before, only trace elements I've ever dosed was seachem fuel, which I did on my old 90g and a few times when I first set this up but it's such a large system I was wondering if the cost was worth it.. thought a calcium reactor did that essentially,but guess not?
The aluminum and tin thing, I did talk with another friend today and he said same thing, that there was study showing there needed to be very high levels of these to cause issues and it was more with softies, which is the opposite case for my tank. While this may be the case, I still thought it was a notable thing. He also said that when he set his system up he had same high metals but had issue with an mp40 which caused it.. (I've already checked mine) I'm thinking regardless of these findings my plan of water changes and cuprisorb is the best option, coupled with time.
I do not think I have problems with salt I wouldn't think, I've been using the same salt for years and go through enough boxes of it with this much water that if I were to have a bad batch it would be long gone by now. As for marinepure block I have heard that as well. The display system does not have any marine pure in it at all, however the frag system has a ton of it and is doing great-go figure.
The initial problem is what has me scratching my head, I agree the first alk swing set this all off, and the following fluctuations certainly did not help...this were basically sure of.. the big question that I'm trying to find tho is what caused THAT initial swing... the corals get bad stop consuming and it goes up..but what was the triggering mechanism? I honestly may never know..
As for if the pvc was the cause or not, I agree..if it was (which I kinda actually hope it was) then what's leached is leached and once I draw it out were done. This would be a good scenario in my book. The cuprisorb will be here tomorrow. I need 600ml but ordered 750 and will prob just use the whole 750 as to do the job faster or atleast a bit more efficiently, and will do a 50-60 gallon water change every other day till 100% of the water has been changed. I also got FWE for the red planaria..I'll run this right before I start the string of water changes..having carbon running with cuprisorb wont make a difference correct?
My skimmer draws air as I have a co2 scrubber on the air intake with no silencer and that draws air from in room, I'll note that the scrubber made barely any difference in ph, I mean like .05 - .08 at most.. I blame this on skimmer being pretty undersized for a 600g system and so gas exchange is not high enough to be as impactful.. I've considered doing a recirculating setup to see if that helps. The co2 media has been in there over 2 weeks and hasn't gotten even a hint of purple lol. (Yes theres water in bottom too)
No aerosol cans used in house..and no sprays used around tank or in same room.
Ac vent does blow into the canopy from the ceiling above where the tank is but it's not directly over top. I looked up in vent before I set it all up and it was clean up there.
Stray voltage- I brought home my meter and tested I have 18 volts. All of this voltage comes from the abyzz. I've ready that it's common to have some voltage induced into the water from magnetic fields of the pump motors, but if turning off only abyzz it drops to 0. With abyzz on its 18. I've read people saying 20-40 is acceptable and I'm sure thata on way smaller systems than I'm working with...so is 18 ok in your opinion? I do t have many things with power cords in water: 4 returns, skimmer, 2 heaters and ato. That's it for wires in the tank.
I decided to take up the suggestion of a walk through and show you guys just a bit..wish my first video was for better reasons than this one lol. It's hard to see the damage under blues, and I've already taken a lot out. The sump room still needs to be put together
@crusso1993 the link is right here^^ lol
As for the macro, the display fuge seems to be growing. Not alarming rates but noticable growth, the chaeto is dying off, almost completely. I was thinking that would be due to the display fuge. I've never dosed iodine before, only trace elements I've ever dosed was seachem fuel, which I did on my old 90g and a few times when I first set this up but it's such a large system I was wondering if the cost was worth it.. thought a calcium reactor did that essentially,but guess not?
The aluminum and tin thing, I did talk with another friend today and he said same thing, that there was study showing there needed to be very high levels of these to cause issues and it was more with softies, which is the opposite case for my tank. While this may be the case, I still thought it was a notable thing. He also said that when he set his system up he had same high metals but had issue with an mp40 which caused it.. (I've already checked mine) I'm thinking regardless of these findings my plan of water changes and cuprisorb is the best option, coupled with time.
I do not think I have problems with salt I wouldn't think, I've been using the same salt for years and go through enough boxes of it with this much water that if I were to have a bad batch it would be long gone by now. As for marinepure block I have heard that as well. The display system does not have any marine pure in it at all, however the frag system has a ton of it and is doing great-go figure.
The initial problem is what has me scratching my head, I agree the first alk swing set this all off, and the following fluctuations certainly did not help...this were basically sure of.. the big question that I'm trying to find tho is what caused THAT initial swing... the corals get bad stop consuming and it goes up..but what was the triggering mechanism? I honestly may never know..
As for if the pvc was the cause or not, I agree..if it was (which I kinda actually hope it was) then what's leached is leached and once I draw it out were done. This would be a good scenario in my book. The cuprisorb will be here tomorrow. I need 600ml but ordered 750 and will prob just use the whole 750 as to do the job faster or atleast a bit more efficiently, and will do a 50-60 gallon water change every other day till 100% of the water has been changed. I also got FWE for the red planaria..I'll run this right before I start the string of water changes..having carbon running with cuprisorb wont make a difference correct?
My skimmer draws air as I have a co2 scrubber on the air intake with no silencer and that draws air from in room, I'll note that the scrubber made barely any difference in ph, I mean like .05 - .08 at most.. I blame this on skimmer being pretty undersized for a 600g system and so gas exchange is not high enough to be as impactful.. I've considered doing a recirculating setup to see if that helps. The co2 media has been in there over 2 weeks and hasn't gotten even a hint of purple lol. (Yes theres water in bottom too)
No aerosol cans used in house..and no sprays used around tank or in same room.
Ac vent does blow into the canopy from the ceiling above where the tank is but it's not directly over top. I looked up in vent before I set it all up and it was clean up there.
Stray voltage- I brought home my meter and tested I have 18 volts. All of this voltage comes from the abyzz. I've ready that it's common to have some voltage induced into the water from magnetic fields of the pump motors, but if turning off only abyzz it drops to 0. With abyzz on its 18. I've read people saying 20-40 is acceptable and I'm sure thata on way smaller systems than I'm working with...so is 18 ok in your opinion? I do t have many things with power cords in water: 4 returns, skimmer, 2 heaters and ato. That's it for wires in the tank.
I decided to take up the suggestion of a walk through and show you guys just a bit..wish my first video was for better reasons than this one lol. It's hard to see the damage under blues, and I've already taken a lot out. The sump room still needs to be put together
@crusso1993 the link is right here^^ lol
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