Massive All4Reef consumption

[jhadaway]

I have a Waterbox 100.3 and it has been increasing All4Reef usage steadily. The reef will be 3 years old soon and I am currently building a room for a 235 gallon. I was hoping to hold off on doing anything to my existing reef but I am way over the recommended dosage of AFR. My best guess is I have about 73 gallons of actual water in the tank I am now dosing 163ml of AFR over 8 doses a day. More than double the max. It's also getting expensive. I think I have figured out the conversion to BRS 2-part with Balling Method but I wanted to post it hoping someone would check it. I have lots of acropora and sps that I don't want to disturb so I need to get this as close as possible and tweak from there. The new tank will be BRS/Balling with Kalk.

Current AFR=163ml day

BRS 2 Part will be
178 ml Soda Ash for Alk (plus 165ml A+)
178 ml Calcium (plus 165ml KA+)
10 ml Magnesium to start
356 ml Balling Part C

Any help is most appreciated
Thanks,
JOe

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That AFR use is adding a bit over 3 dKH per day.

The amount of my recipe #1 (BRS uses it) is 13% more than AFR to exactly match potency, so your conversions looks pretty close.

Does your tank have enough alk consumers in it to use 3 dKH per day?

 

[jhadaway]

Thanks Randy!
The tank is overgrown with digitata, Monti caps, acropora, a large milka stylo, an 8" clam and other sps. The growth really accelerated in year 2. I was hoping to make the switch on the new tank but I'm concerned about the overdosing. I remember seeing something about oxygen levels being depleted.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy!
The tank is overgrown with digitata, Monti caps, acropora, a large milka stylo, an 8" clam and other sps. The growth really accelerated in year 2. I was hoping to make the switch on the new tank but I'm concerned about the overdosing. I remember seeing something about oxygen levels being depleted.

OK, that demand can make sense. There's nothing necessarily wrong with continuing the AFR, except cost.

 

[jhadaway]

Really appreciate your time.
Thanks,
JOe

 

[rishma]

Would like to see a pic of your overgrown tank!

I remember something about oxygen depletion also, may because AFR is a carbon source? Though lots of us dose carbon so provided you have a skimmer it should be fine. Heck, Randy says it’s Okay!.

Do you ever run ICP? I ask because the results would be very interesting. AFR is a fixed ratio of trace elements and since you are dosing that much it would neat to see which trace elements are building up and which are being depleted in your tank. I dose AFR and see some very minor imbalances but water changes keep things in a good range. I’m sure every tank is different.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Would like to see a pic of your overgrown tank!

I remember something about oxygen depletion also, may because AFR is a carbon source? Though lots of us dose carbon so provided you have a skimmer it should be fine. Heck, Randy says it’s Okay!.

Do you ever run ICP? I ask because the results would be very interesting. AFR is a fixed ratio of trace elements and since you are dosing that much it would neat to see which trace elements are building up and which are being depleted in your tank. I dose AFR and see some very minor imbalances but water changes keep things in a good range. I’m sure every tank is different.

AFR at high doses uses a similar amount of O2 as typical organic carbon dosing, and good aeration can overcome it.

Compare ethanol:

C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O

to formate:

2CH2O2- + O2 --> 2CO2 + 2OH-

On a per molecule basis, one formate uses 1/6th of the O2 as one ethanol (e.g., vodka).

Let's explore how much that actually is.

2.8 dKH of alk from formate is 1 meq/L of formate consumed

That formate formation consumes 0.5 meq/L O2, or 8 ppm.

That would be a big deal if it happened instantly, but it does not. It is spread out over hours. Nevertheless, I'd dose it during the light cycle.

Let's compare to ethanol dosing. Suppose you are dosing 7 mL of vodka per day per 100 gallons (typical). That is 7 x 0.4 = 2.8 g of ethanol per day. That amount is 61 meq of ethanol, and uses 61 x 3 = 183 meq of O2. If that is in 100 gallons (379 L), it is 0.5 meq/L = 8 ppm of O2.

Exactly the same as the AFR at 2.8 dKH per day.

 

[rishma]

AFR at high doses uses a similar amount of O2 as typical organic carbon dosing, and good aeration can overcome it.

Compare ethanol:

C2H5OH + 3O2 --> 2CO2 + 3H2O

to formate:

2CH2O2- + O2 --> 2CO2 + 2OH-

On a per molecule basis, one formate uses 1/6th of the O2 as one ethanol (e.g., vodka).

Let's explore how much that actually is.

2.8 dKH of alk from formate is 1 meq/L of formate consumed

That formate formation consumes 0.5 meq/L O2, or 8 ppm.

That would be a big deal if it happened instantly, but it does not. It is spread out over hours. Nevertheless, I'd dose it during the light cycle.

Let's compare to ethanol dosing. Suppose you are dosing 7 mL of vodka per day per 100 gallons (typical). That is 7 x 0.4 = 2.8 g of ethanol per day. That amount is 61 meq of ethanol, and uses 61 x 3 = 183 meq of O2. If that is in 100 gallons (379 L), it is 0.5 meq/L = 8 ppm of O2.

Exactly the same as the AFR at 2.8 dKH per day.

Thank you! Makes perfect sense.

If @jhadaway does switch to a 2 part system he might need to consider the impact of the loss of carbon dosing and include some vodka/vinegar in the new dosing regime.

 

[areefer01]

Thanks Randy!
The tank is overgrown with digitata, Monti caps, acropora, a large milka stylo, an 8" clam and other sps. The growth really accelerated in year 2. I was hoping to make the switch on the new tank but I'm concerned about the overdosing. I remember seeing something about oxygen levels being depleted.

I'm sure you have already gone down this route but if not:

• 1600 g AFR container makes 10 liters
• Container is $75 USD pre tax, shipping, if those things align to your state of purchase or buy enough for free shipping
• 10 liters = 10,000 milliliters
• Fuzzy math 10,000 / 163 ml day = 61 days of dosing per $75 USD 1600 g container

If you haven't reach out to Tropic Marin and see if you can source the bucket of AFR or at least let them know you would like to see a larger home aquarist container option due to your projected dosing. Also note - I'm not suggesting you stay or leave the product just having been in a similar situation on cost vs product. Of course if my math is wrong poke fun at me :D

 

[jhadaway]

I'll try and get a white light shot of the tank. My calc is around $37/month and switching to 2 part is roughly half that. On my new tank I'm hoping Kalk drops another 5-10 bucks off but we will see how that goes. I love the AFR but it's getting costly. I have carbon dosing set up already so I'll just be flipping the switch there.
I do all of my AFR doing during light hours. Last dose at 8pm. If Tropic Marin made a bigger bucket that lessened the cost I'd absolutely consider it.

 

[jhadaway]

Still pretty blue but here it is.