Media balls from sump in observation?

JustinMN18

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Hello,

I just wrapped up 14 days of QT for my mystery wrasse. I ran 1.65 copper power for 14 days, and never once noticed anything wrong, except for some twitching of the head. I suspect flukes. No flashing, no spots, eats like a champ, very open swimmer.

I just transferred it to a brand new 10 gallon observation tank, unmedicated, and plan on running a round or two of 3-day prazi pro treatments starting tomorrow. I was wondering if it would be ok to add a media ball or two from my sump into this tank to help with bacteria, or if that "defeats" the purpose. The reason I ask is because unless something awful happens (knock on wood), the fish is going into my display tank anyway. Just wondering what you all think!


Justin
 

Spare time

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Keep in mind that the QT you did at 1.65ppm essentially was the same as doing no QT at all. It needs to be 30 days at 81F with copper power between 2-2.5ppm.

Prazi also needs two (sometimes three) rounds to be effective as it doesn't kill the eggs. Three days is not long enough. You need to follow the instructions when medicating.

As for the biomedia, it won't cause an issue.
 

threebuoys

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@Spare time is correct. The target for copper power or copper safe is 2.5 and you should test often enough that it doesn't drop below 2.25 ppm. The parasites will not die at lower concentration. You should also maintain copper for 30 days.
 

vetteguy53081

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You will need to start a NEW full cycle for your QT to be effective. Partial dosing is at times harmful rather than beneficial. Keep in mind that quarantining a fish allows the fish to de-stress and for you to have the fish adjust to your parameters, your food while providing it a safe place for it to thrive away from more aggressive and established tank mates who can out compete it for food. Putting a fish directly into your display puts the fish into more stress after being netted at store or from shipment and added stress events leads to the reason why we quarantine our fish.
A fish’s immune system should be able to fight off more infections and diseases, however the shock of transportation compromises your fish’s immune system leaving it vulnerable to any disease that gets shipped with it. Some of these diseases when they break out can be so deadly, they can wipe our your tank within days.
 
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JustinMN18

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Thanks for the comments, but now I'm confused. Copper power is considered therepeutic between 1.5-2.5, and humblefish has therepeutic beginning at 2.0.

I was following his 14 day qt process with copper, which includes 2 weeks in observation. @threebuoys @Spare time @Jay Hemdal

I followed the humblefish protocol to the T, minus I had the copper power at 1.65, but when I lookup the therepeutic level online, 1.5 is the bare minimum....??

 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for the comments, but now I'm confused. Copper power is considered therepeutic between 1.5-2.5, and humblefish has therepeutic beginning at 2.0.

I was following his 14 day qt process with copper, which includes 2 weeks in observation. @threebuoys @Spare time @Jay Hemdal

I followed the humblefish protocol to the T, minus I had the copper coper at 1.65, but when I lookup the therepeutic level online, 1.5 is the bare minimum....??
Copper power, if dosed according to the label ends up at about 2.1 ppm. Many people have found hat this needs to be bumped to 2.5 in order to stop active protozoans. Below 2.0 and less than 30 days is not likely to be effective.

Jay
 
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JustinMN18

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Copper power, if dosed according to the label ends up at about 2.1 ppm. Many people have found hat this needs to be bumped to 2.5 in order to stop active protozoans. Below 2.0 and less than 30 days is not likely to be effective.

Jay
Thanks for that insight. From a perspective of... "Chance".. I've had this fish for 21 days total. Started ramping over a week to 1.65, and held it there the whole 14 days. I haven't noticed anything other than shaking its head, which I've noticed before with flukes. No spots, no hiding, no flashing against anything, etc. In a general sense, is there a chance my 21 day "observation" with 14 days at 1.65 is "pretty safe"? Now I'll do another 2 weeks of observation, and run a couple rounds of prazipro.

I just know wrasses have a hard time with copper and prazi. So I didn't want to go full dose on copper for the full 30 days.
 

ZombieEngineer

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Since you are transferring tanks anyway and want to observe for 2 more weeks, why not just do nett into another tank in 7 days. That should be almost as effective as 30 day copper and still end up with the fish done in the same timespan. Eliminates risk from potential copper sensitivity of the fish.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for that insight. From a perspective of... "Chance".. I've had this fish for 21 days total. Started ramping over a week to 1.65, and held it there the whole 14 days. I haven't noticed anything other than shaking its head, which I've noticed before with flukes. No spots, no hiding, no flashing against anything, etc. In a general sense, is there a chance my 21 day "observation" with 14 days at 1.65 is "pretty safe"? Now I'll do another 2 weeks of observation, and run a couple rounds of prazipro.

I just know wrasses have a hard time with copper and prazi. So I didn't want to go full dose on copper for the full 30 days.

Wrasse handle copper power fine and handle prazi well if you keep the aeration up.

The trouble with low dose copper isn’t that it is proportionally less effective, it just isn’t effective at all, especially copper power and coppersafe. If your fish don’t develop a protozoan disease after a low dose like this, that just means they weren’t harboring any parasites to begin with.
I don’t like to dose copper and prazi together, but a lot of people do it with no issues.
What I would do is dose 3x with prazi, 8 to 9 days apart, water changes before each treatment if needed. Then, I would redose with copper power at 2.0 for 14 days, (30 would be better). Do NOT take a week to ramp up the copper power, that is just bad advice. As long as you are dosing accurately, it is safer to get to a full dose with two additions over a day.
Jay
 

threebuoys

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@Jay Hemdal gave a much more thorough response than I did, and I'm sorry I created confusion for you. I agree with everything he said. I use Copper Power and the bottle now specifies treatment should be at 2.5 ppm. I use a Hanna checker and never let the concentration drop below 2.25 ppm for 30 days. I've QT'd wrasses, tangs, clownfish, cardinals, and dwarf angels and a blenny with no problem due to copper. I follow the copper treatment with prazi. The protocol we use is found at the link below. It was updated last year, so you may see some differences with earlier QT protocols that may be found in searches.
 
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JustinMN18

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Wrasse handle copper power fine and handle prazi well if you keep the aeration up.

The trouble with low dose copper isn’t that it is proportionally less effective, it just isn’t effective at all, especially copper power and coppersafe. If your fish don’t develop a protozoan disease after a low dose like this, that just means they weren’t harboring any parasites to begin with.
I don’t like to dose copper and prazi together, but a lot of people do it with no issues.
What I would do is dose 3x with prazi, 8 to 9 days apart, water changes before each treatment if needed. Then, I would redose with copper power at 2.0 for 14 days, (30 would be better). Do NOT take a week to ramp up the copper power, that is just bad advice. As long as you are dosing accurately, it is safer to get to a full dose with two additions over a day.
Jay
Thanks for that. Just out of curiosity... You mentioned if my fish "don’t (doesn't) develop a protozoan disease after a low dose like this, that just means they weren’t harboring any parasites to begin with". If I haven't noticed ich, velvet, or uronema/brook in this time (21 total days, 14 days at 1.65 copper), does that mean it probably didn't have it to start?

I'm only quarantining this wrasse. I don't have other fish going as well.

Sorry, I'm just trying to make sure I fully get what you're saying. Thanks a lot for your help!
 

threebuoys

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New fish with unknown history always have the potential to be carriers of either cryptocaryon or velvet. A carrier may not display visible signs. The parasite or its eggs may be present only in the gills, or in a very low density on the body. If present, the eggs may not hatch immediately, or the population density may not be sufficient to catch your attention. However, the protozoan will eventually move through its normal life cycle. Only the free swimming stage is susceptible to treatment that will kill it. That could happen in 3 days, or in weeks depending on the stage that it was in when brought into the tank. If the free swimmers are not killed, they could possibly reinfect the original carrier, again in the gills or unnoticeable on the body. Copper treatment is the most dependable medication to kill the free swimmers.

So, you can never be 100% certain that the new fish does not carry parasites. Certainly, a long term observational QT will point you in that direction. Likewise, I think many new fish do not carry the parasites in the first place. For me, I have a number of fish in my display tank that I am confident do not harbor parasites. So, I prophylactically treat new fish with copper as much to protect my existing fish as to insure the new fish is healthy.
 

Jay Hemdal

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Thanks for that. Just out of curiosity... You mentioned if my fish "don’t (doesn't) develop a protozoan disease after a low dose like this, that just means they weren’t harboring any parasites to begin with". If I haven't noticed ich, velvet, or uronema/brook in this time (21 total days, 14 days at 1.65 copper), does that mean it probably didn't have it to start?

I'm only quarantining this wrasse. I don't have other fish going as well.

Sorry, I'm just trying to make sure I fully get what you're saying. Thanks a lot for your help!

No - Cryptocaryon can be harbored as a subacute infection in untreated fish for many months. What I'm saying is that not 100% of untreated fish will get sick, but that in the case of partial copper doses, you don't get partial protection. Even properly quarantined fish can have issues - sometimes due to a problem that wasn't treated for, a mistake in the process, or some unknown factor. Still, a good active quarantine reduces the risk to a great degree.

Jay
 

MnFish1

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You agree with the other guys or what my assumptions were? Trying to figure out a good path forward.
I agree with the other guys.

1. Low dose copper - may make treatment more difficult in the future.
2. I would treat according to whatever protocol you trust - i.e. either Humblefish - or Jay's. I would not try to mix both together or adjust either one.
3. I do not think its a good idea to add things from your display tank into your quarantine. instead - get a cheap hang on back filter - use some floss(no carbon) - and add something like Fritz 900

I said no comment because in the past there has been some debate on R2R about people going to Site XXX and getting recommendations then coming here and asking what to do (and vice versa LOL). I'm not talking just about Humblefish - it was a general comment. There are lots of protocols out there - the important thing IMHO is to follow them to the letter.
 
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