Carpenter Wrasse suddenly dead in QT

[Urban_Epiphyte]

I just had a Carpenter's flasher wrasse die in QT after seemingly doing great for over a month.

Here's a quick timeline of events:

• Obtained wrasse 3/13/25 via reputable online vendor. The other fish in the order (a fairy wrasse) was DOA in a separate bag though so maybe that's a bad sign.
• Completed Tank Transfer Method around 3/26 (didn't write down exact date but it would have been around then), including 2 H2O2 baths between transfers
• 3/26-4/6 observation, water changes, etc
• 4/6 dosed API General Cure as prophylactic flukes treatment per dosing instructions
• 4/13 80% water change (would have done sooner but got super busy, and fish seemed utterly unaffected by the first dose of GC and was still doing great)
• 4/14 evening - dose #2 of GC (same amount, same water volume as #1)
• 4/15 wrasse still doing great, eating readily, no changes in behavior
• 4/16 morning - wrasse seemed great, eating as normal
• 4/16 after work - wrasse hiding in PVC tube, not coming out to eat which was highly unusual
• 4/16 transferred fish to new/clean bin with clean water by carrying it over in the PVC tube to minimize stress
• 4/17 morning - wrasse still staying in PVC tube but alive. Looking better/more active if anything.
• 4/17 after work - wrasse dead

Knowing that TTM can be tough for wrasses I was EXTREMELY careful, always matching temp and salinity within 1 ppt, using a smooth pasta strainer for transfers instead of a net, cleaning materials with vinegar, then sanitizing with bleach, then fully drying, and using 3 sets of bins (clear plastic IKEA bins for lateral viewing) & heaters and new airstones and tubing, being extremely careful about contamination in general, using a "new"/untainted handful of cycled K2 media after each transfer, using Ammonia alert badges, etc.

The fish would always swim up to the front of the tub when I'd come by and ate readily (I fed 4+ times a day knowing the K2 media could handle the bio load). I primarily fed it TDO Chroma Boost pellets, Reef Nutrition R.O.E (brand new bottle), and LRS Reef Frenzy Nano. It's poop looked normal and everything seemed completely fine until the second dose of General Cure.

I am really at a loss as to what went wrong and how it declined so quickly. I don't see anything that suggests disease or parasites on the wrasse. The only things I can think of are:

• The plastic IKEA bins leached something and are not safe for fish QT (or fish QT with metro/prazi/GC at least)
• It was sunny on 4/16 and a bit of sunlight reached the tub for the first time ~ the temperature was normal but maybe this stressed the fish or scared it and it injured itself or something. Or maybe this reduced available oxygen (despite heavy oxygenation via air stone) and it had gill flukes or gill damage or something.
• It had a small black blob/spot stuck to its dorsal fin (near where the second ray would come in on a terminal phase male) that appeared sometime between 4/7 and 4/13. I couldn't get a photo of it and don't see it now, but I assumed this was just something stuck to its dorsal fine or it was growing its second dorsal ray while maturing or transitioning to a terminal phase male. It wasn't acting any differently though.
• The General Cure killed it (seems plausible, though it seemed completely fine after the first dose)
• The wrasse had flukes and the second GC dose caused it to bleed out, or had complications from "exit wounds". The fish did seem pale but I assumed this was normal or from being immature. It was never flashing or showing signs of distress. Still, this seems plausible.
• Some other unknown disease or condition killed it (after reading more about Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease and other mysterious maladies affecting flasher and fairy wrasses, this seems like the second most likely explanation after the GC killing it for whatever reason or flukes related wounds)

I do have a microscope and a jewelers loupe so can provide magnified photos if that would be helpful.

This was pretty disappointing considering how well the QT seemed to be going. Unless there's something I overlooked, if this is how it is with flasher and fairy wrasses these days then it does not seem worth it to try again with them. I've been in the hobby since 2008 but had a long spat of avoiding fish up until a year or two ago, just because there seems to be so much death in the supply chain.

TL:DR Carpenter wrasse seemed to be doing great until dose #2 of General Cure, then dead within ~66 hours.

 

[Bume]

"Suddenly dead", it sounds like you were killing it for over a month. Why are you treating it with baths, chemicals and constant parameter changes? If you were following someone's instructions, it was overkill and harmful. If you made all of this process up, which it sounds like you did... dial it waaaay back man.

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

"Suddenly dead", it sounds like you were killing it for over a month. Why are you treating it with baths, chemicals and constant parameter changes? If you were following someone's instructions, it was overkill and harmful. If you made all of this process up, which it sounds like you did... dial it waaaay back man.

Prophylactic quarantine is best-practice for new fish. There are a few different methods and while it's less popular on this forum, the hybrid tank transfer method when done correctly is low-risk and will eliminate marine ich and may eliminate other marine parasites.

I would encourage you to read the sticky threads in this sub for more info about different quarantine methods and prophylactic treatments. Prophylaxis means treating in order to prevent disease; this is how you keep the fish in your display tank safe from marine parasites.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I just had a Carpenter's flasher wrasse die in QT after seemingly doing great for over a month.

Here's a quick timeline of events:

• Obtained wrasse 3/13/25 via reputable online vendor. The other fish in the order (a fairy wrasse) was DOA in a separate bag though so maybe that's a bad sign.
• Completed Tank Transfer Method around 3/26 (didn't write down exact date but it would have been around then), including 2 H2O2 baths between transfers
• 3/26-4/6 observation, water changes, etc
• 4/6 dosed API General Cure as prophylactic flukes treatment per dosing instructions
• 4/13 80% water change (would have done sooner but got super busy, and fish seemed utterly unaffected by the first dose of GC and was still doing great)
• 4/14 evening - dose #2 of GC (same amount, same water volume as #1)
• 4/15 wrasse still doing great, eating readily, no changes in behavior
• 4/16 morning - wrasse seemed great, eating as normal
• 4/16 after work - wrasse hiding in PVC tube, not coming out to eat which was highly unusual
• 4/16 transferred fish to new/clean bin with clean water by carrying it over in the PVC tube to minimize stress
• 4/17 morning - wrasse still staying in PVC tube but alive. Looking better/more active if anything.
• 4/17 after work - wrasse dead

Knowing that TTM can be tough for wrasses I was EXTREMELY careful, always matching temp and salinity within 1 ppt, using a smooth pasta strainer for transfers instead of a net, cleaning materials with vinegar, then sanitizing with bleach, then fully drying, and using 3 sets of bins (clear plastic IKEA bins for lateral viewing) & heaters and new airstones and tubing, being extremely careful about contamination in general, using a "new"/untainted handful of cycled K2 media after each transfer, using Ammonia alert badges, etc.

The fish would always swim up to the front of the tub when I'd come by and ate readily (I fed 4+ times a day knowing the K2 media could handle the bio load). I primarily fed it TDO Chroma Boost pellets, Reef Nutrition R.O.E (brand new bottle), and LRS Reef Frenzy Nano. It's poop looked normal and everything seemed completely fine until the second dose of General Cure.

I am really at a loss as to what went wrong and how it declined so quickly. I don't see anything that suggests disease or parasites on the wrasse. The only things I can think of are:

• The plastic IKEA bins leached something and are not safe for fish QT (or fish QT with metro/prazi/GC at least)
• It was sunny on 4/16 and a bit of sunlight reached the tub for the first time ~ the temperature was normal but maybe this stressed the fish or scared it and it injured itself or something. Or maybe this reduced available oxygen (despite heavy oxygenation via air stone) and it had gill flukes or gill damage or something.
• It had a small black blob/spot stuck to its dorsal fin (near where the second ray would come in on a terminal phase male) that appeared sometime between 4/7 and 4/13. I couldn't get a photo of it and don't see it now, but I assumed this was just something stuck to its dorsal fine or it was growing its second dorsal ray while maturing or transitioning to a terminal phase male. It wasn't acting any differently though.
• The General Cure killed it (seems plausible, though it seemed completely fine after the first dose)
• The wrasse had flukes and the second GC dose caused it to bleed out, or had complications from "exit wounds". The fish did seem pale but I assumed this was normal or from being immature. It was never flashing or showing signs of distress. Still, this seems plausible.
• Some other unknown disease or condition killed it (after reading more about Unknown Neurological Wrasse Disease and other mysterious maladies affecting flasher and fairy wrasses, this seems like the second most likely explanation after the GC killing it for whatever reason or flukes related wounds)

I do have a microscope and a jewelers loupe so can provide magnified photos if that would be helpful.

This was pretty disappointing considering how well the QT seemed to be going. Unless there's something I overlooked, if this is how it is with flasher and fairy wrasses these days then it does not seem worth it to try again with them. I've been in the hobby since 2008 but had a long spat of avoiding fish up until a year or two ago, just because there seems to be so much death in the supply chain.

TL:DR Carpenter wrasse seemed to be doing great until dose #2 of General Cure, then dead within ~66 hours.

TTM is stressful for many fish and the method I least recommend. If the fish had anything on it, the observation period will have allowed a given disease to take hold of the fish wasting valuable time for treatment and GC has limited level of metro and prazi and best would have been coppersafe or chloroquine phosphate.

 

[EuphyllinOHk]

Do you have any videos of the wrasse swimming after you finished the TTM period? I'd be inclined to think that the UNWD or some residual cyanide poisoning after capture would be the cause based on what you describe. My pre-caffeine brain is reading a bout of sudden lethargy at the end of the wrasse's life.

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

TTM is stressful for many fish and the method I least recommend. If the fish had anything on it, the observation period will have allowed a given disease to take hold of the fish wasting valuable time for treatment and GC has limited level of metro and prazi and best would have been coppersafe or chloroquine phosphate.

GC is listed here as a viable way to dose prazi and most quarantine regimens that include copper recommend waiting 30+ days in therapeutic copper anyways before dosing prazi. In this case there was no positive indication of a parasite that copper would have treated so I don't think that is particularly relevant here, though I do have copper power and other medications on hand and am open to using copper in the future. But I chose TTM since even chelated copper is stressful on wrasses.

I understand the reasoning that waiting could have allowed flukes for example to take hold but again there was no indication of flukes or signs of stress from the fish. I waited a bit just to let the fish recover just in case TTM was stressful for it (even though there was no indication that it was).

I was also under the impression that chloroquine phosphate is not recommended for flasher wrasses.

 

[vetteguy53081]

GC is listed here as a viable way to dose prazi and most quarantine regimens that include copper recommend waiting 30+ days in therapeutic copper anyways before dosing prazi. In this case there was no positive indication of a parasite that copper would have treated so I don't think that is particularly relevant here, though I do have copper power and other medications on hand and am open to using copper in the future. But I chose TTM since even chelated copper is stressful on wrasses.

I understand the reasoning that waiting could have allowed flukes for example to take hold but again there was no indication of flukes or signs of stress from the fish. I waited a bit just to let the fish recover just in case TTM was stressful for it (even though there was no indication that it was).

I was also under the impression that chloroquine phosphate is not recommended for flasher wrasses.

I’m familiar with chart seas back about 10 years ago and a few things have changed and often we can’t rely on ones treatment to use as our own
That article also recommends ramping up medication which is a huge disadvantage

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

Do you have any videos of the wrasse swimming after you finished the TTM period? I'd be inclined to think that the UNWD or some residual cyanide poisoning after capture would be the cause based on what you describe. My pre-caffeine brain is reading a bout of sudden lethargy at the end of the wrasse's life.

Yeah I'd think it's something like that. UNWD fits better than cyanide poisoning, though I looked back at the seller's website and noticed they don't list the country of origin for their carpenter wrasses but they do for other wrasses, which makes me think it might have come from somewhere with sketchy collection practices.

I don't have a video unfortunately but here are some photos of the fish from March 15, and then the last one is from April 6 (though not a great photo).

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

I’m familiar with chart seas back about 10 years ago and a few things have changed and often we can’t rely on ones treatment to use as our own
That article also recommends ramping up medication which is a huge disadvantage

Ah yeah makes sense.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Yeah I'd think it's something like that. UNWD fits better than cyanide poisoning, though I looked back at the seller's website and noticed they don't list the country of origin for their carpenter wrasses but they do for other wrasses, which makes me think it might have come from somewhere with sketchy collection practices.

I don't have a video unfortunately but here are some photos of the fish from March 15, and then the last one is from April 6 (though not a great photo).

I did not bring up UNWND as the fish did not display nor fit your observation in which it would not swim well, swim tail down or swim with a bent spine and despite all this, the wrasse would still attempt to feed and display no damage such as crashing into objects.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Prophylactic quarantine is best-practice for new fish. There are a few different methods and while it's less popular on this forum, the hybrid tank transfer method when done correctly is low-risk and will eliminate marine ich and may eliminate other marine parasites.

I would encourage you to read the sticky threads in this sub for more info about different quarantine methods and prophylactic treatments. Prophylaxis means treating in order to prevent disease; this is how you keep the fish in your display tank safe from marine parasites.

I can't rule out cyanide loss in this case, so that is a "back of mind" diagnosis.

Hybrid TTM is very rough on the fish and does not allow for lateral viewing. The latter is vital for monitoring fish during quarantine. Some people do TTM in clear tanks and that helps, but the process is still disruptive and stressful, right at a point where the fish need a stable environment. To be honest, I stopped using TTM in the mid-1980s. The "hybrid" part is the addition of H2O2, and that does not have a proven use at doses less than 75 ppm (from the paper on treating Amyloodinium with it).

Another problem with TTM is maintaining adequate water quality - people very often don't realize how quickly ammonia can build up in static systems. I'm thinking of the timeline towards the end - was there an efficient bio filter? Were you monitoring ammonia?

That all said, the one DOA and the second fish not doing well points to some thriftiness issue with the fish themselves.

I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest my quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

It isn't a perfect method, and does take a long time, but it is more effective than TTM.

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

I can't rule out cyanide loss in this case, so that is a "back of mind" diagnosis.

Hybrid TTM is very rough on the fish and does not allow for lateral viewing. The latter is vital for monitoring fish during quarantine. Some people do TTM in clear tanks and that helps, but the process is still disruptive and stressful, right at a point where the fish need a stable environment. To be honest, I stopped using TTM in the mid-1980s. The "hybrid" part is the addition of H2O2, and that does not have a proven use at doses less than 75 ppm (from the paper on treating Amyloodinium with it).

Another problem with TTM is maintaining adequate water quality - people very often don't realize how quickly ammonia can build up in static systems. I'm thinking of the timeline towards the end - was there an efficient bio filter? Were you monitoring ammonia?

That all said, the one DOA and the second fish not doing well points to some thriftiness issue with the fish themselves.

I'd be remiss if I didn't suggest my quarantine protocol:

Current Quarantine Protocol

2024 Quarantine Procedures Jay Hemdal David Scarborough Protozoans (Cryptocaryon/ich, Amyloodinium/velvet) and Metazoan trematodes/flukes are by far the most common parasites found on newly acquired fish. A carefully managed, proactive quarantine process can effectively eliminate these...

www.reef2reef.com

It isn't a perfect method, and does take a long time, but it is more effective than TTM.

I was using clear bins that do allow for lateral viewing, cycled K2 biological media (tumbling in those mesh cylinders in the photos, with heavy aeration via an air stone) which I would of course replace with more cycled media at each transfer, and still monitoring ammonia with ammonia alert badges.

I hear you, and may use your QT method going forward, but I am not convinced that TTM was even the problem here or that a different QT method would have prevented this fish from going downhill so quickly after dosing GC.

Still I appreciate the help!

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

I did not bring up UNWND as the fish did not display nor fit your observation in which it would not swim well, swim tail down or swim with a bent spine and despite all this, the wrasse would still attempt to feed and display no damage such as crashing into objects.

Yeah I'd generally agree unless the fish was effectively masking the symptoms up until the last couple of days.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I was using clear bins that do allow for lateral viewing, cycled K2 biological media (tumbling in those mesh cylinders in the photos, with heavy aeration via an air stone) which I would of course replace with more cycled media at each transfer, and still monitoring ammonia with ammonia alert badges.

I hear you, and may use your QT method going forward, but I am not convinced that TTM was even the problem here or that a different QT method would have prevented this fish from going downhill so quickly after dosing GC.

Still I appreciate the help!

Any time you dose wrasse with praziquantel, you need to ensure there is good aeration (bubbles rising up through the water column, not just circulation).

Here is a post I made recently on PZQ dosing:

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[Urban_Epiphyte]

Any time you dose wrasse with praziquantel, you need to ensure there is good aeration (bubbles rising up through the water column, not just circulation).

Here is a post I made recently on PZQ dosing:

Dosing Praziquantel (PZQ)

Using Praziquantel (PZQ) to treat flukes Overview In the early 1990’s, a researcher at the New York Aquarium published a paper on using Praziquantel (PZQ) to help control flukes, a parasitic flatworm. Also known as monogenean trematodes, these fish parasites can cause significant mortality in...

www.reef2reef.com

Yes there was heavy aeration the entire time, like I mentioned.