Metal Halides Making a Come Back? Don’t call it a come back?

[Troylee]

Huh never noticed sigs don't show up on mobile.

I do need to make a correction from my post above.. wrong driver board..
This board needed to be able to handle > 48V

They do if you turn your phone sideways which I never do.

 

[A. grandis]

The last one.. a "no white" experiment using PC Amber, Lime, Cyan, Deep red, Royal blue Luxeon Z leds..
Approx 15w per puck. Circuit board designed by me, reflowed by me.
3 versions 1 deep red centric, one cyan centric, one with a hint of violet

One w/ a violet one

Driver/controller custom built and custom programmed to include gamma dimming:

Older 200gal light. Refllectors not lenses.

Customized Popbloom designed by me layed out by dsuny:

Old an now no longer available Sorra 5400k violet based cob. Fresh fish cob and a 4000k 95cri Luminous devices cob for trials over a 55gal

Old customized reefbreeders. Needed a tweak. A bit too much cyan for the owner.:

First what I'd call my successful design. Still running on a 40 b 10 years later though most of the diodes have been replaced (quality upgrades w/ luxeon whites) about 7 years ago.
Simple frame. Its not rocket science.

Now things are clear to those who try to understand why you post here.
Did you start the production of any of those yet?
so... when are you going to make them for saltwater?

 

[oreo54]

Now things are clear to those who try to understand why you post here.
Did you start the production of any of those yet?
so... when are you going to make them for saltwater?

No sw.. I posted " patterns" for people to try.
I've explained it numerous times, and why.
As to commercial fw..never as easy as it seems.
Also couldn't get my cost down to less than a retail of about $7/watt which I consider robbery though actually pretty common these days w sw lights. Death knell in fw lights.

Here spend about $500 for an led "iwasaki killer"..
Note though that the iwasaki peak around the yellow/green/cyan/windex band.
The LED more "blue biology band" to use some of the current terminology..
Still has a calculated "low" K of 7000-ish.

Prove me wrong..All parts should be readily available. Even has real UV.
Thermals aren't worked out. It is a "250 W class" light.
Will unfortunately probably need fans or beefier heat sink.
Sadly the heatsink here isn't anodized as it should be for free air cooling.light coat of black enamel on its fin side is a solution. Increases thermal radiation.

The importance of radiation in heat sink design | Heat Sink Calculator-Blog: Focused on Heat Sink Analysis, Design and Optimization

Radiation can significantly affect the performance of heat sink. As such it's influence on the design of a heat sink should not be overlooked.

www.heatsinkcalculator.com

I used 10 not 9 Bridgelux cobs to make up for the lower lumens I gave the imported spectrum.
There is a ton of par in the "full spectrum" cobs..
But that is what channel and dimming control is for..

STARS are ones choice as to nm's.
Like want deep blue, burple, or purple overtones.

Keep in mind luxeon uv's/violets can run $7-ish a piece.
Rest are pretty cheap.

First image was showing design and used only Viosys 420nm.
Second got more creative..with uv to cyan.
Number of channel is also a choice.
Suggest 1) Whites 2) violet/uv 3) reg blue/cyan.
3 could be added to 1..
Next and shown in the past diagram is the violets/uv board being a seperate piece since they currently have a tendency to fade b4 any of the other ones.
no optics so blending should be fine at the native 120 degrees. Think Steves viosys had much tighter lenses on their chips though. In this use it would probably have some advantages.
Assumes a glass covered tank or some glass protection to the leds.
Height would be lower for normal tanks. Wide-ish tanks well higher up. Should have plenty of par.
Note there is NO substute for the high CRI high quality cobs except for other high cri high quality cobs.
Lumiled "fresh fish" is one of them. Cost is much higher.
Upper right corner below has th chart showing what the cobs are short of compared to an Iwasaki and why the need for some added colors. See the green line.
420 peak and lower...

In the same vein how is your sps halide tank doing?
I suspect it is soo much better than your led run sps tank huh.
I mean you need personal experience in order to have an opinion..
Just kidding..

There was a question I always wanted to ask you.. when you actually ran leds how long, which ones, and how was the channels set up? If I remember they were just black boxes..What made you decide they weren't any good?

 

[Rjramos]

So, I run a single 250w radion halide 20k, between a pair of AI32’s on my 120 gal display 12-3pm everyday. With a chiller on the system. It accents and pops better than any LED fixture. This type of application I like, to replace all together no. Not much adjustments and versatility with halides.
On and Off.

 

[A. grandis]

No sw.. I posted " patterns" for people to try.
I've explained it numerous times, and why.
As to commercial fw..never as easy as it seems.
Also couldn't get my cost down to less than a retail of about $7/watt which I consider robbery though actually pretty common these days w sw lights. Death knell in fw lights.

Here spend about $500 for an led "iwasaki killer"..
Note though that the iwasaki peak around the yellow/green/cyan/windex band.
The LED more "blue biology band" to use some of the current terminology..
Still has a calculated "low" K of 7000-ish.

Prove me wrong..All parts should be readily available. Even has real UV.
Thermals aren't worked out. It is a "250 W class" light.
Will unfortunately probably need fans or beefier heat sink.
Sadly the heatsink here isn't anodized as it should be for free air cooling.light coat of black enamel on its fin side is a solution. Increases thermal radiation.

The importance of radiation in heat sink design | Heat Sink Calculator-Blog: Focused on Heat Sink Analysis, Design and Optimization

Radiation can significantly affect the performance of heat sink. As such it's influence on the design of a heat sink should not be overlooked.

www.heatsinkcalculator.com

I used 10 not 9 Bridgelux cobs to make up for the lower lumens I gave the imported spectrum.
There is a ton of par in the "full spectrum" cobs..
But that is what channel and dimming control is for..

STARS are ones choice as to nm's.
Like want deep blue, burple, or purple overtones.

Keep in mind luxeon uv's/violets can run $7-ish a piece.
Rest are pretty cheap.

First image was showing design and used only Viosys 420nm.
Second got more creative..with uv to cyan.
Number of channel is also a choice.
Suggest 1) Whites 2) violet/uv 3) reg blue/cyan.
3 could be added to 1..
Next and shown in the past diagram is the violets/uv board being a seperate piece since they currently have a tendency to fade b4 any of the other ones.
no optics so blending should be fine at the native 120 degrees. Think Steves viosys had much tighter lenses on their chips though. In this use it would probably have some advantages.
Assumes a glass covered tank or some glass protection to the leds.
Height would be lower for normal tanks. Wide-ish tanks well higher up. Should have plenty of par.
Note there is NO substute for the high CRI high quality cobs except for other high cri high quality cobs.
Lumiled "fresh fish" is one of them. Cost is much higher.
Upper right corner below has th chart showing what the cobs are short of compared to an Iwasaki and why the need for some added colors. See the green line.
420 peak and lower...

In the same vein how is your sps halide tank doing?
I suspect it is soo much better than your led run sps tank huh.
I mean you need personal experience in order to have an opinion..
Just kidding..

There was a question I always wanted to ask you.. when you actually ran leds how long, which ones, and how was the channels set up? If I remember they were just black boxes..What made you decide they weren't any good?

Very nice elaborated post! Thank you!

Have you ever measured spectrum with different spectrometers under the same LED fixture? What about the differences of those graphics when changing positions with those sensors on different areas/angles under the fixtures?

Man, why... why did you ask me those last questions? Everything was going smooth this time! LOL!
My experiences with SPS in aquariums are "very restricted", only at work with all those exhibit, including the coral farm, at the WA and UH since 1995, which includes T5s, MH, natural sunlight and LEDs. Sorry, unfortunately I can't publish anything from the WA because of their policies. I also have "some experience" in the ocean every time I jump in the water to observe the corals. Talk to so many people about their results with LEDs. The time I tried those black boxes at home I was very optimist and forcing myself to adapt to the results, but couldn't waste my time anymore when the resullts after 6-8 months stated to show exactly the opposite of what I had under T5s. It was terrible for the zoas since the beginning, to tell the tuth!!! I still think those black boxes are one the best options to anyone that wants to use LEDs, though. It doesn't need to be expensive.
My experiences with LEDs at work... the results I see there are worse and disgusting to me (I'm so sorry, but that is the truth, couldn't find better words, not against anyone that likes them!). The corals suffer under LEDs and will grow weird! The colors are artificially looking and the corals aren't as healthy as in the ocean or under MH!
Some of the local fish stores tried some of the so called "high end" LEDs, like the Radion, just to course at them! I deeply feel sorry when people call me to show me a tank under LEDs thinking they have something special. It does impress some with those blues pressing the fluorescent pigments, but nothing natural and with distorted colonies with lots of dead spots under. Terrible IMO! Too different from what we see in the ocean in so many aspects! The whole thing is so artificial to say the least! Even for aesthetics over a fish only tank. Not my cup of tea. Not good for the corals!
People say Radions and Reef Breeders are "great". LOL! What a joke!
Fresh water systems under LEDs are OK IMO, but way better under T5s. I tested some planted tanks under LEDs and didn't like the growth of some of the plants. Seen many different LEDs for planted tanks, nope! Even ADA fixtures are almost convincing, but not like those lines of T5s! Sorry!!!! I have still many LED fixtures at home only over freshwater tanks. "It's a cool light, meaning there is no life in it" many say. I have some friends that take planted tanks very seriously and don't sell fixtures, true hobbyists, that agree with me when I say T5s are the very best for planted tanks. I also have some other fiends that have stores and sell expensive LEDs and say they are "great". Whatever... It's personal preference and business.
The majority of my friends around the world use LEDs and the majority would agree that halides/T5s are still the very best lights for most applications.

 

[A. grandis]

So, I run a single 250w radion halide 20k, between a pair of AI32’s on my 120 gal display 12-3pm everyday. With a chiller on the system. It accents and pops better than any LED fixture. This type of application I like, to replace all together no. Not much adjustments and versatility with halides.
On and Off.

NOPE! You have a RADIUM 250W 20K MH lamp. LOL!
Yes, it does have a very natural "pop" to it.

 

[Jasonak]

Had I been able to find decent bulbs for them still I would be running them next to my LEDs but any time I found them shipping to here was always more than the bulbs themselves so my halide setup sits idle in a cabinet along with my icecap ballasts I used to run T8s

 

[Rjramos]

NOPE! You have a RADIUM 250W 20K MH lamp. LOL!
Yes, it does have a very natural "pop" to it.

Alright, you caught my typo, lol! Even funnier a recent thread stated “How’s going to Reefapalooza Orlando?” I replied, “It’s going good ! “

NOPE! You have a RADIUM 250W 20K MH lamp. LOL!
Yes, it does have a very natural "pop" to it.

NOPE! You have a RADIUM 250W 20K MH lamp. LOL!
Yes, it does have a very natural "pop" to it.

 

[A. grandis]

Alright, you caught my typo, lol! Even funnier a recent thread stated “How’s going to Reefapalooza Orlando?” I replied, “It’s going good ! “

Haha!! Main thing here is to remind us that the name for those Radion LEDs were most likely an attempt to use homophones and suggest the "substitution" for those Radiums MH. Little did they know that Radium would still be strong on the throne after so long!

 

[Hans-Werner]

When I changed from MH + T5 to LED I had some problems and I adscribed it to the adaptation of corals to the new lighting. Today I still think there is some adaptation necessary but maybe even more important is the nutrient supply, both, macro nutrients and trace elements. In my eyes this underlines that LED lighting is much more efficient, especially in the blue spectrum around 450 nm, where all MHs and T5 tubes burn out rapidly and virtually loose this part of the spectrum (publication of Brunngräber in German aquarium magazin "Der Meerwasser-Aquarianer").

However this efficiency is a double-edged sword. 450 nm is the "adaptation-wavelenght", the wavelength corals and many other organisms use as signal for adapatation to light, photoperiodicity etc.. I think it is important to keep this in mind.

If someone has problems with LED I recommend to check the spectrum, which better should be balanced, and the nutrients. I think with fine balancing of nutrients and especially fine tuning of trace elements LED has maybe much more to offer than MH and T5.

 

[tedfisher496]

Halides are awesome. I used them for many years.
I run full leds now and will never go back.
You will get many that say leds cant compete. They come to these threads and bash leds saying many stupid things.
After 30+ years in the hobby, only the last 4 years with leds, I can fully say that leds can grow anything you want, "if you know how to maintain a reef system".
They are on the decline, imo.
I hope this dose not turn into the mine is better than yours thread, as they always do.

Peace fellow reefers and run whatever makes you happy.

with your expirence with MH and led's which option produce better color's and growth?

 

[Pod_01]

I think with fine balancing of nutrients and especially fine tuning of trace elements LED has maybe much more to offer than MH and T5.

Interesting…
Sooooo… Is there particular nutrient or particular numbers to aim for?
Also is there particular trace elements you suspect are, let’s say more critical that one should watch out for?

 

[lbacha]

When I changed from MH + T5 to LED I had some problems and I adscribed it to the adaptation of corals to the new lighting. Today I still think there is some adaptation necessary but maybe even more important is the nutrient supply, both, macro nutrients and trace elements. In my eyes this underlines that LED lighting is much more efficient, especially in the blue spectrum around 450 nm, where all MHs and T5 tubes burn out rapidly and virtually loose this part of the spectrum (publication of Brunngräber in German aquarium magazin "Der Meerwasser-Aquarianer").

However this efficiency is a double-edged sword. 450 nm is the "adaptation-wavelenght", the wavelength corals and many other organisms use as signal for adapatation to light, photoperiodicity etc.. I think it is important to keep this in mind.

If someone has problems with LED I recommend to check the spectrum, which better should be balanced, and the nutrients. I think with fine balancing of nutrients and especially fine tuning of trace elements LED has maybe much more to offer than MH and T5.

This makes a lot of sense, if light isn’t the limiting factor anymore then something else becomes the limit. I use to keep high tech freshwater tanks (under metal halides) and I would dump tons of nutrients into the water weekly and then do huge water changes and add more afterwards. The idea was that you wanted to make sure that none of the macro or micro nutrients were missing and this resulted in massive growth (too much to keep up with really which is why I stopped) by switching to less efficient and intense lights I was able to slow down the growth and make the tank less reliant on nutrients. As a result the tank actually looked better and was easier to maintain. Since most incandescent and fluorescent bulbs change color over time I wonder if corals have a growth spurt then slow down into an easier to maintain stage as the colors change which is why they were so easy to grow coral under. The color change is the part that always bothered me even though I have grown some great coral under them.

 

[X-37B]

When I changed from MH + T5 to LED I had some problems and I adscribed it to the adaptation of corals to the new lighting. Today I still think there is some adaptation necessary but maybe even more important is the nutrient supply, both, macro nutrients and trace elements. In my eyes this underlines that LED lighting is much more efficient, especially in the blue spectrum around 450 nm, where all MHs and T5 tubes burn out rapidly and virtually loose this part of the spectrum (publication of Brunngräber in German aquarium magazin "Der Meerwasser-Aquarianer").

However this efficiency is a double-edged sword. 450 nm is the "adaptation-wavelenght", the wavelength corals and many other organisms use as signal for adapatation to light, photoperiodicity etc.. I think it is important to keep this in mind.

If someone has problems with LED I recommend to check the spectrum, which better should be balanced, and the nutrients. I think with fine balancing of nutrients and especially fine tuning of trace elements LED has maybe much more to offer than MH and T5.

Very well said my friend!
I am so tired of the constant mine is better than yours theme these threads turn into.
Many people will never understand that there is so much more to reefing than what lights you run.

 

[A. grandis]

Like the relationship between nutrients and light would be a new thing?
We knew that back in the 90's.
It works in every system no matter what light technology you use.
Chemistry and physics work together.
Still corals will grow deformed, showing artificial colors under LEDs.
Can't fix that part. But everyone likes different way to reef. That is when it all falls down to the personal preferences.

 

[oreo54]

Like the relationship between nutrients and light would be a new thing?
We knew that back in the 90's.
It works in every system no matter what light technology you use.
Chemistry and physics work together.
Still corals will grow deformed, showing artificial colors under LEDs.
Can't fix that part. But everyone likes different way to reef. That is when it all falls down to the personal preferences.

Actually what is the "real" color? you cant say the color is wrong based on a color created from a mh artificial light source.
Only different...

If leds came first the mh color would be "wrong"...
Bit more about this morphology thing..

Distorted/mutant morphology in Acroporas radial and axial corallite structure.

Something I have noticing for a while now is the very unique/strange morphology in certain species of acropora when grown under LED only lighting, compared with corals grown under t5/led hybrid, MH and T5 only. Example- I notice with led only grown A. tenuis that the dimidiate (lip)of the...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[JNalley]

Like the relationship between nutrients and light would be a new thing?
We knew that back in the 90's.
It works in every system no matter what light technology you use.
Chemistry and physics work together.
Still corals will grow differently, showing more and different colors under LEDs.
Can't fix that part. But everyone likes different way to reef. That is when it all falls down to the personal preferences.

Fixed it for you.

You can't say they're growing deformed without showing what the corals' true form would have been. I'm willing to concede that how light spreads from an LED versus a Metal Halide may cause the coral to grow differently, but I will never agree that that results in a "deformed" coral. The coral in our tanks inherently grows differently no matter which lighting we use because no lighting directly mimics the properties of the sun, not even Metal Halide; even at depth, the light output, angle of light, and spectrum of light are vastly different within our tanks than it is on a natural reef. In fact, if you could clone a coral and set the clones in 5 different places on a natural reef, they would all grow differently due to their lighting circumstances at each location. So, deformed is definitely not the right word. Also, the colors in corals can't be artificial if they're created through their natural processes; again, we see many color combinations in nature from the same species of coral, and since the sunlight drowns out the fluorescence of corals in nature, we can never truly know what they look like until we get them under different artificial lights that accentuate certain pigmentation and fluorescence.

 

[X-37B]

Sh

Fixed it for you.

You can't say they're growing deformed without showing what the corals' true form would have been. I'm willing to concede that how light spreads from an LED versus a Metal Halide may cause the coral to grow differently, but I will never agree that that results in a "deformed" coral. The coral in our tanks inherently grows differently no matter which lighting we use because no lighting directly mimics the properties of the sun, not even Metal Halide; even at depth, the light output, angle of light, and spectrum of light are vastly different within our tanks than it is on a natural reef. In fact, if you could clone a coral and set the clones in 5 different places on a natural reef, they would all grow differently due to their lighting circumstances at each location. So, deformed is definitely not the right word. Also, the colors in corals can't be artificial if they're created through their natural processes; again, we see many color combinations in nature from the same species of coral, and since the sunlight drowns out the fluorescence of corals in nature, we can never truly know what they look like until we get them under different artificial lights that accentuate certain pigmentation and fluorescence.

Well said!

 

[A. grandis]

Actually what is the "real" color? you cant say the color is wrong based on a color created from a mh artificial light source.
Only different...

If leds came first the mh color would be "wrong"...
Bit more about this morphology thing..

Distorted/mutant morphology in Acroporas radial and axial corallite structure.

Something I have noticing for a while now is the very unique/strange morphology in certain species of acropora when grown under LED only lighting, compared with corals grown under t5/led hybrid, MH and T5 only. Example- I notice with led only grown A. tenuis that the dimidiate (lip)of the...

www.reef2reef.com

IME the pigment formation from MH/T5s is basically the same that we find in the ocean, besides colony structure, and that is what I am willing to resemble: nature in the glass box. Personally I think that is what makes an aquarium successful and beautiful. The more natural looking the more amazing it is to me!
So yeah, all relative that way because everyone likes different things. What's "real color" to you isn't to your friend, right?

 

[spsick]

I think the options have dwindled in great part due to distributors choosing LEDs for their greater margins (due to higher cost) and taking up vastly less space.

That and because they probably did have a lot collecting dust, as LEDs make sense for people who can’t have canopies or deal with the heat and electricity demands.