Metal Halides Making a Come Back? Don’t call it a come back?

[A. grandis]

What is the definition and qualities of coral health?
How important is the health of corals in captivity?
What are the main factors to provide health?
How much do you care about coral health and how much about aesthetics?
What are the differences we find with different lighting technologies and how they promote those signs of health?
Is aesthetic more important than health?
What are the intersections of coral health and aesthetics?
How does pigment formation play for corals and how important is light for the production of pigments?
Can LEDs be detrimental to corals? How? How much of it? Why? What signs?
What are the signs of detrimental coral health?
What is the hole of lighting to prevent those detrimental effects in the long run?
What light qualities should we look for when keeping corals in captivity?
How much can we compromise?
Is money more important than the animals?
Is blue light the way to promote and sell corals for fluorescence profit and teach this new generation?
Should we set a minimum size of frag to improve coral survival rates?
Is PAR the most important thing to measure? Why?
If we can't achieve the same results using halides with LEDs, what is the best for the coral and why? List the differences first and answer.

 

[A. grandis]

My twin was wired for overdrive, flip a switch and channel one basically fed the input of channel 2. (not exactly, but easiest way to explain it). So, DIY built in overdrive distortion.

The recent project ( I went overboard and copper plated the xformer shells, black nickel plated the chasis, etc.) Hand cut dovetails for the case.

Anyway - back to the regularly scheduled programming...

I'm still waiting for the pictures of your old tank under halides.
I know it was probably a very nice tank!

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'm still waiting for the pictures of your old tank under halides.
I know it was probably a very nice tank!

We keep going round and round with this. I don't really take photos of my tank. They may be some floating around somewhere from 15 or more years ago but I am not going to go search offline media backups for them.

 

[A. grandis]

We keep going round and round with this. I don't really take photos of my tank. They may be some floating around somewhere from 15 or more years ago but I am not going to go search offline media backups for them.

You might think that this discussion is what motivates me to see those pictures, but what I would like to see the most would be the species of corals you kept. If you find some please let us know. What species do you have now and how are they doing?

 

[BeanAnimal]

You might think that this discussion is what motivates me to see those pictures, but what I would like to see the most would be the species of corals you kept. If you find some please let us know. What species do you have now and how are they doing?

20 years ago - it was a mixed reef. Acros were the standard fare of the era. SPS would have ben various digis, montis (branching and plating), green slimer, pocillopora and then at some point whatever Jason Fox and Steve Tyree were peddling and most of that was encrusting stuff back then. Various LPS too, including a massive pearl bubble that started as the size of a dime. Success was always a mixed bag, but mostly due to rather poor adherence to dosing I would imagine and chemical warfare in the mixed reef.

What do I keep now? Mostly SPS - but I couldn't name one of them. I don't care. Mix of species and styles, I don't keep track of trade names. Some SPS colonies straight from fiji recently as well. Things are doing well given the exactly ZERO time I put into maintenance, testing and tweaking.

 

[A. grandis]

20 years ago - it was a mixed reef. Acros were the standard fare of the era. SPS would have ben various digis, montis (branching and plating), green slimer, pocillopora and then at some point whatever Jason Fox and Steve Tyree were peddling and most of that was encrusting stuff back then. Various LPS too, including a massive pearl bubble that started as the size of a dime. Success was always a mixed bag, but mostly due to rather poor adherence to dosing I would imagine and chemical warfare in the mixed reef.

What do I keep now? Mostly SPS - but I couldn't name one of them. I don't care. Mix of species and styles, I don't keep track of trade names. Some SPS colonies straight from fiji recently as well. Things are doing well given the exactly ZERO time I put into maintenance, testing and tweaking.

I was referring to species' names, not trade names. I don't care much about cartoon names either.
Thanks for listing the corals. Nice!

 

[VintageReefer]

Found this today. In a box.

Then found another

Inside was this note, see right column

I bought these, swapped them into my fixture and about 2 weeks later came upon a great deal on a photon 48 led and I switched over to LED. The halides only have 2 weeks use then we’re put back in original boxes, noted, wrapped in bubble wrap, and put in another box.

Also found 2x250 DE off brand halide lamps, these came with the fixture and were used a few weeks before I upgraded to phoenix 14ks exclusively. I would use an off brand as a backup in case a bulb blew.

Also found my 716w t5/MH 48” fixture and the ballasts

I am probably going to throw out the fixture and post the bulbs for sale

 

[Sdbuehler1]

I ran a Current USA SunPod metal halide lighting system with 2x 250 watt 14K bulbs over a 30 inch tank about 15 years ago. The tank looked beautiful and the coral growth was amazing but I do not miss the massive heat output that required me to run multiple fans in my sump just to keep the tank below 84 degrees in the summer. The ballasts were huge and the fans were so noisy that it was like being in a server room. I think it added about $50 a month on to my electric bill when I upgraded to that lighting system. The LED lights available today are a welcome addition in my book.

 

[VintageReefer]

I agree completely. No doubt I got great color and growth but the heat and noise was too much.


First day I was setting up the fixture I turned it on…few hours later I heard a loud pop noise. My glass lid had a crack front to back from the halide heat. Maybe it got splashed from below. No idea. Glad I swapped to led

 

[A. grandis]

How can heat be such a huge obstacle in using metal halide? I simply put a fan parallel in between the water surface and the fixture to cut the transfer. Sure I need a chiller, but I would need a chiller even without lights. Hard to understand all this fuss about heat with halides. All my houses were hot during summer with or without halides. If a day is hot, it will be hot! Sure it's hotter around the tank, but not that crazy. The ones that are afraid of heat must have a enclosed canopy. I worked more than 2 decades under 1000W and 400W halides and in some cases also with tropical mid day sunlight on top of that and it was fine. No fans. Corals absolutely love halides! That's what's important to me. Again, I've never seen snow in my life, so I'm very used to warm weather my whole life. LOL!

 

[A. grandis]

I agree completely. No doubt I got great color and growth but the heat and noise was too much.


First day I was setting up the fixture I turned it on…few hours later I heard a loud pop noise. My glass lid had a crack front to back from the halide heat. Maybe it got splashed from below. No idea. Glad I swapped to led

You're not supposed to put regular glass under halides. It needs to be tempered glass. That's a mistake you made. It's all about the right application.

 

[BeanAnimal]

How can heat be such a huge obstacle in using metal halide? I simply put a fan parallel in between the water surface and the fixture to cut the transfer.

The IR heat transfer is significant compared to other technologies - a fan does nothing for that. The heat is point source as well and the reflectors (good ones) also reflect that heat.

Sure I need a chiller, but I would need a chiller even without lights.

That is case dependent. 2 (150W) Halides and ballasts put me over the top (by a lot). I used to evap several gallons a day to prevent needing to run a chiller.

Hard to understand all this fuss about heat with halides.

Really it is not. For the typical T5 or LED user they are running fewer watts total and there is less IR total.

When you make these one sided arguments you are doing the same thing that you accuse the LED folks of doing.

Be factual, not misleading... your argument will go further.

 

[A. grandis]

Another thing people always bring up is the differences in electricity cost. If you need to cover the surface area of the tank to provide the spread with your LEDs properly you will need to spend the same electricity or more with LEDs in comparison to halides. You will need more LED fixtures to supply that coverage and not what the majority of LED manufacturers will tell you. Just ask Sanjay. Ask Keith. They both know that is the case and if anyone wants to provide that coverage it should be the same for every sigle case. What happens is that sometimes people have more wattage than needed using halides. Then when you get LEDs you will use less, of course, because you didn't need that much watts from you halides in the first place. Math and physics don't change. Application is what dictates those differences.

 

[A. grandis]

The IR heat transfer is significant compared to other technologies - a fan does nothing for that. The heat is point source as well and the reflectors (good ones) also reflect that heat.


That is case dependent. 2 (150W) Halides and ballasts put me over the top (by a lot). I used to evap several gallons a day to prevent needing to run a chiller.


Really it is not. For the typical T5 or LED user they are running fewer watts total and there is less IR total.

When you make these one sided arguments you are doing the same thing that you accuse the LED folks of doing.

Be factual, not misleading... your argument will go further.

IR radiation doesn't make the house hot.
It will warm up the water, not too bad if you have the right wattage for the size tank.
We all know about the IR. The cut transfer of fixture heat with the fan is to disperse that localized heat in the air between fixture and tank, which isn't IR.
That works every time in every system and in any weather. You need the top open.
You guys make too much fuss around heat!

 

[VintageReefer]

You're not supposed to put regular glass under halides. It needs to be tempered glass. That's a mistake you made. It's all about the right application.

Come now. It was before the days of leds. I bought a reef ready 75g package from a LFS and it came with the versa top glass lids. Most people were using halides. Many had glass tops. Myself included. One lid cracked the other didn’t. Even aqueon support was surprised. They sent a replacement and I ran glass lids under that fixture for 5 years and no further issues. I had a defect in my panel exposed by the heat, or the lid got hot and splashed by one of my larger fish

 

[A. grandis]

I still didn't see anyone talking about the comparison of actual results and what they prefer for the corals. The arguments are solemnly in regards to heat, electricity and bulky fixtures. So personal preferences between the 2 types of technologies are only based in comfort or aesthetics? Not much related to coral aesthetics in terms of colony formation either, unless they want to keep that fluorescence under blue LEDs to justify the high ca$h values of those frags.

 

[A. grandis]

Come now. It was before the days of leds. I bought a reef ready 75g package from a LFS and it came with the versa top glass lids. Most people were using halides. Many had glass tops. Myself included. One lid cracked the other didn’t. Even aqueon support was surprised. They sent a replacement and I ran glass lids under that fixture for 5 years and no further issues. I had a defect in my panel exposed by the heat, or the lid got hot and splashed by one of my larger fish

Well, the truth is that tempered glass is the right application under halides, disregarding any other observation. The right application will keep you safe.

 

[VintageReefer]

Another thing people always bring up is the differences in electricity cost. If you need to cover the surface area of the tank to provide the spread with your LEDs properly you will need to spend the same electricity or more with LEDs in comparison to halides. You will need more LED fixtures to supply that coverage and not what the majority of LED manufacturers will tell you. Just ask Sanjay. Ask Keith. They both know that is the case and if anyone wants to provide that coverage it should be the same for every sigle case. What happens is that sometimes people have more wattage than needed using halides. Then when you get LEDs you will use less, of course, because you didn't need that much watts from you halides in the first place. Math and physics don't change. Application is what dictates those differences.

While I agree with you many people with halide run more watts than they need, halides unfortunately are not dimmable and people are stuck with limited options.

I went from 716watts 12 hours a day on my electric bill down to approx 150 watts with a led fixture and had full tank coverage and healthy sps.

Chillers are expensive and bulky also, and another thing that can break and fail, and those halides would raise my tank several degrees.

 

[A. grandis]

While I agree with you many people with halide run more watts than they need, halides unfortunately are not dimmable and people are stuck with limited options.

I went from 716watts 12 hours a day on my electric bill down to approx 150 watts with a led fixture and had full tank coverage and healthy sps.

Chillers are expensive and bulky also, and another thing that can break and fail, and those halides would raise my tank several degrees.

We also know every case is different depending where you live, right? I would have to run chillers here without any lights just to keep the tank running at 79°F summer time, so... We don't need a heater for the house. When I ran LEDs my electricity bill wasn't any different. It all washes out in the majority of times though, if application is correct, and considering cooling/heating throughout the year. Sanjay is spending much more money with electicity using more wattage with his LEDs in comparison to the halides he had, to even try to cover what halides were providing before, and heating the tank during winter time with LEDs. That's why he said for his tank halide would be the best. Don't undestand why he still runs LEDs. Doesn't make sense.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Another thing people always bring up is the differences in electricity cost. If you need to cover the surface area of the tank to provide the spread with your LEDs properly you will need to spend the same electricity or more with LEDs in comparison to halides.

You do fine for a while - but then you start posting rhetoric again. This is the stuff that sets people crazy. You are basically trolling for a response at this point and then will complain that people want to argue.

Math and physics don't change

They don't but you have to apply them factually.