Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[McMullen]

I don't yet have an air stone, just using a maxi jet to generate bubbles into my return. It's really strange see all my Sps slime!

My question, sorry if already answered, do I need to change the direction of my return nozzles or will the bubbles accumulate and go all over the tank equally?

 

[Squamosa]

It's really strange see all my Sps slime

Yes, I thought it was very strange at first too, they eventually slow down with mucus production. I really believe they are shedding those "toxins" talked about in the literature

do I need to change the direction of my return nozzles or will the bubbles accumulate and go all over the tank equally?

I would say if you don't have large bubbles blowing directly onto corals then keep your nozzles where they are, otherwise adjust accordingly. Sufficient in-tank flow will disperse the bubbles everywhere and you'll even find them clinging to your rocks!

 

[Squamosa]

I mentioned the R&D, D.I.Y. micro-bubbler we had made. So far the finest bubbles yet and the water turning milky white in colour.
The video is courtesy of Brian Mason from the Marine Aquarium Society of Western Australia and is shown being tested in his 260 gallon, sps dominated reef tank...enjoy

 

[McMullen]

That looked like some serious bubble making!

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yes, I thought it was very strange at first too, they eventually slow down with mucus production. I really believe they are shedding those "toxins" talked about in the literature

What toxins are you talking about?

 

[Squamosa]

What toxins are you talking about?

The "toxins" I was referring to, would be primarily the strains of bacteria known to colonise and grow on the mucus of corals as reported by Sorokin (1991).

Sorokin, Y. I. 1991. Parameters of productivity and metabolism of coral reef ecosystems off central Vietnam. Estuarine, Coastal and Shelf Science. 33:259-280.

I am by no means an expert on corals, their form or function, but I read...a lot

People are most welcome to try this methodology at their own risk, it has worked for me

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Micro scrubbing bubbles on Elegant Corals FB page
https://www.facebook.com/1511705699...1073741829.1511705699091667/1615803182015251/

I would just caution folks that while the method may have benefits, and may be desirable to use, some of the things posted on Facebook by Elegant Corals LLC is not accurate, so be wary of believing all of the things posted there.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The "toxins" I was referring to, would be primarily the strains of bacteria known to colonise and grow on the mucus of corals as reported by Sorokin (1991).

Sorokin, Y. I. 1991. Parameters of productivity and metabolism of coral reef ecosystems off central Vietnam. Estuarine, Coastal and Shelf Science. 33:259-280.

I am by no means an expert on corals, their form or function, but I read...a lot

People are most welcome to try this methodology at their own risk, it has worked for me

OK, thanks. That's just not a normal use of the term toxin (a natural poison, usually).

 

[Squamosa]

term toxin

Yes, wording is everything, thanks for the clarification

 

[Squamosa]

Elegant Corals LLC is not accurate

Elegant corals is where I first went to find out information about this methodology and then moved on (as you do in research) to more fruitful literature.
The Japanese studies on nano-bubbles makes for fascinating reading, especially the work done by Ebina, et al. (2013) and the attempt to clean up Tokyo harbour using giant nano-bubble generators also makes for fascinating viewing

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0065339


It would seem that there is huge amounts (larger than I've seen before) of one-way animosity directed at Elegant corals and it's owner especially on social media sites. Whatever the history behind all of this is does not concern me one bit, however, it seems that some of that animosity is spilling out over here onto the micro-bubble forums on R2R and it makes me uncomfortable to say the least.

From what little evidence I can gather there are larger numbers of people now, trying this weird new thing of bubbles and by and large they seem to report no negatives, in fact I am overwhelmed with positive comments on my own social media site.

I would be wary of what's posted on social media and here, do your own research people. I've seen enough threads urging people to have a go with H2O2 to make me shudder as I believe that's 'expert only' territory. We never see the bad only the glossy good

I hope you all find the "zone"with your tanks and are as happy as I am with what I see every day

Peace

 

[Squamosa]

Of course, we can only dream of creating true nano-bubbles at home using our crude bubblers, but we can get them micro in size and when I shine a laser pointer through the water I can see some evidence of the nano-bubbles, but for now it's mostly micro and it's working for us

 

[cb684]

I would just caution folks that while the method may have benefits, and may be desirable to use, some of the things posted on Facebook by Elegant Corals LLC is not accurate, so be wary of believing all of the things posted there.

Randy,
My main concerns in using this is damaging sponges and clams (that may not be able to get rid of the bubbles in their tissues), causing stress-related release of toxins from corals (chemical warfare: mesenterial filaments, and terpenoid compounds, etc...), and interfering with fish gas exchange. It looks that so far these problems were not seen. Do you have any other concerns that did not make my list? Have you read about any bad side effects? I understand you being cautious about it and I agree that, as in other topics, a lot is shared that is not accurate (I do not mean specifically in this thread or any other, just in general).
CB.

 

[Thales]

It would seem that there is huge amounts (larger than I've seen before) of one-way animosity directed at Elegant corals and it's owner especially on social media sites. Whatever the history behind all of this is does not concern me one bit, however, it seems that some of that animosity is spilling out over here onto the micro-bubble forums on R2R and it makes me uncomfortable to say the least.

From what little evidence I can gather there are larger numbers of people now, trying this weird new thing of bubbles and by and large they seem to report no negatives, in fact I am overwhelmed with positive comments on my own social media site.

There is no history, except to say that many have seen this type of thing before. A simple method, that has some easily understandable effects, is promoted to have many more effects that have very little, if any support. Someone says to be careful there is not support, and they are immediately demonized as hating new things, personally attacking, ignoring science, etc - all rather than actually supporting the claims made. It is what happened in this thread - though apparently you don't like the way Cruz and I have talked on facebook and that is where your animosity towards me seems to be coming from.
Contrary to your belief, I don't have much of any opinion about bubbling, except that many of the claims are not supported. I would love to see them supported, because with all cheap and easy methods reported to do amazing things, I would like it to be true. It not being supported, but still pushed, causes all kinds of problems for the hobby for decades because these ideas never go away because they are easy and sexy. People still think the Eco Aqualizer, Marc Weiss products, and ginger are all effective things to do in a reef tank which ends up costing people money and animals lives.
They all start with 'its cheap, so what's the harm?'. The harm is that people think it works when the effects reported occur as often without the product or method, which allows people to think it is doing something, which almost always leads to even grander claims and more problems. Homeopathy, crystal healing, ionic bracelets and more offer simple solutions to complex problems for very little money based on claims that don't pan out. Watching reefkeepers go down that road with another product/method is painful for us that have been doing this a long time. My only tactic is to ask for evidence or suggest ways to get evidence. The fact that when I do that I am somehow the bad guy is perplexing, and sometimes my patience wears thin and I try to be abrasive in kind to try to get the attention of others in a particular discussion. This worked with Cruz btw, and since our first discussion the rehetoric that was being spammed across the forum and social media has dialed back and he and I have had a productive discussion about why observations are not great evidence for grand claims.
So we have this thread, in the Reef Aquarium Discussion forum, not a specific "Positive talk of Nanobubble only" forum, which is supposed to allow for discussion. My post about evidence from a simple side by side growth trial would give some evidence that bubbling is beneficial rather than just not harmful. There are a million things you can add to a reef that aren't harmful, but there is no point if they aren't doing anything good. It seems bubbling raises DO (though no one seems to have actually done the test), raises pH, but most of the other claims don't really have much support other than "I think it looks better"(and can be achieved by other means). I would love bubbling to be supported, as it would make the next 30 years much easier.
Ok, back to trying to convince someone that because the white spots went away doesn't mean that ginger cured the ich - large numbers of people think it does, but that doesn't make it true.
Happy reefing.

 

[Squamosa]

way Cruz and I have talked on facebook and that is where your animosity towards me seems to be coming from.

Nonsense, not at all, those sort of bad vibes spill over onto my feeds and it makes me very uncomfortable. Your long rant kinda vindicates my earlier statement!

its cheap, so what's the harm

Yes, it's cheap and it's only air, deal with it!

ginger cured the ich

And we all know that's what garlic is for

 

[Squamosa]

Randy,
My main concerns in using this is damaging sponges and clams (that may not be able to get rid of the bubbles in their tissues), causing stress-related release of toxins from corals (chemical warfare: mesenterial filaments, and terpenoid compounds, etc...), and interfering with fish gas exchange. It looks that so far these problems were not seen. Do you have any other concerns that did not make my list? Have you read about any bad side effects? I understand you being cautious about it and I agree that, as in other topics, a lot is shared that is not accurate (I do not mean specifically in this thread or any other, just in general).
CB.

I do not keep clams but others that do report no negative effects, the jury is probably still out on that. FWIW my sponge population is increasing

I have been running my little exercise for 2 months tomorrow and have seen nothing of what you mention (mesenterial filaments e.t.c.).

I have not seen any ill-effects, have any others, please come forward, it's an open forum.

Leave the social media pages to their lot, who knows, this might work

 

[Thales]

Nonsense, not at all, those sort of bad vibes spill over onto my feeds and it makes me very uncomfortable. Your long rant kinda vindicates my earlier statement!


Yes, it's cheap and it's only air, deal with it!



And we all know that's what garlic is for

Rant? I tried, Randy, I tried.

 

[Squamosa]

Rant? Sweet wounded Jesus. I tried, Randy, I tried.

I also give up, let's agree to disagree?
You keep a check on the science/facts and I'll carry on

 

[Thales]

I also give up, let's agree to disagree?
You keep a check on the science/facts and I'll carry on

No. You are misinterpreting what I say, ignoring the actual content, so we can't even agree to disagree (which is a empty statement anyway). I am flabbergasted that you treat me like an enemy.

 

[Squamosa]

No. You are misinterpreting what I say, ignoring the actual content, so we can't even agree to disagree (which is a empty statement anyway). I am flabbergasted that you treat me like an enemy.

Richard, calm down mate, we are on the same side, one scientist to another, but name calling does not do this thread any good.

I understand your concerns about all the gobbledygook and pseudo-science that comes before in this hobby! That's why we try different things.
Good gosh, I'm not here to kill my animals, they are doing very well.

Know that I've taken everything you said to heart and now you have a great day

 

[Reefing Madness]

Ok kids, how bout we settle down a bit.
As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.