Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[Squamosa]

Ok kids, how bout we settle down a bit.
As the saying goes, there is more than one way to skin a cat.

Absolutely

 

[Thales]

Richard, calm down mate, we are on the same side, one scientist to another, but name calling does not do this thread any good.

I understand your concerns about all the gobbledygook and pseudo-science that comes before in this hobby! That's why we try different things.
Good gosh, I'm not here to kill my animals, they are doing very well.

Know that I've taken everything you said to heart and now you have a great day

You have been abrasive and dismissive and demeaning of me and what I said from the outset. Even that you tell me to calm down and that you aren't here to kill your animals tells me that you are translating what I say into something that I don't mean in order to fit your narrative. Given your responses, I have no reason to believe that you are a scientist or that you have understood anything I have brought up.

 

[Reefing Madness]

Last chance..........

 

[reefwiser]

Squamosa you are still using DSR if I am correct right?
This is such and old school technique I remember people doing this 30 years ago.

 

[Squamosa]

Squamosa you are still using DSR if I am correct right?
This is such and old school technique I remember people doing this 30 years ago.

Hey reef wiser
I am still using a variant of it, as much as that I'm now mixing my own micro-elements, using my own home-made calcium reactor, vodka dosing (although I switch back and forth with vinegar),GFO and I got rid of the power filter thing.

But the bubble thing, there's something in that

Have a good day

 

[Squamosa]

I still believe in Glenn's vision

 

[mikejrice]

I've seen this around a lot lately, and while it sounds interesting, I still question the validity of creating "nano bubbles" via this method. If you search online, nano bubbles have been created in the past by forcing air through ceramic nozzles. I'm not saying it's not possible that pumping air through a wood stone and then using a pump to further chop them up will create nano bubbles, but I would be interested to see this tested scientifically before we start throwing around technical terminology that may not fit.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One point with regards to growth rates...

It would be quite valuable (IMO) for folks posting growth rate info to have a measure of the day and night pH before and after starting bubbling.

The reason is that one main hypothesized reasons for growth rate differences is the change in pH, and the change in pH will (should) be in different dirfections for different tanks, so the effect on growth rate might actually go in different directions as well.

Tanks with a deficit of CO2 with respect to the air being used will show a drop in pH, and those with an excess of CO2 will show a rise in pH. SOem tanks may show different effects depending on the time in the light cycle, and the levels of CO2 in the home air.

FWIW, my reef tank that I had for 20 years always ran at a deficit of CO2 with respect to my home air, and when I increased aeration the pH dropped, and reduced the aeration (by stopping my skimmer, for example) the pH rose (because I use limewater which induces a pH deficit, but photosynthesis can also induce a deficit).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I've seen this around a lot lately, and while it sounds interesting, I still question the validity of creating "nano bubbles" via this method. If you search online, nano bubbles have been created in the past by forcing air through ceramic nozzles. I'm not saying it's not possible that pumping air through a wood stone and then using a pump to further chop them up will create nano bubbles, but I would be interested to see this tested scientifically before we start throwing around technical terminology that may not fit.

I agree the the bubbles that folks are encountering may be only microbubbles. True nanobubbles cannot be seen by the eye.

 

[Squamosa]

I'm not saying it's not possible that pumping air through a wood stone and then using a pump to further chop them up will create nano bubbles, but I would be interested to see this tested scientifically before we start throwing around technical terminology that may not fit.

I know, that's why I said that we mainly create micro-bubbles, the Japanese ceramic nozzles cost a fortune and require high pressure (beyond my scope, I'm afraid). I can get the bubbles almost to nano...almost
Have you tried this method before?

 

[mikejrice]

I know, that's why I said that we mainly create micro-bubbles, the Japanese ceramic nozzles cost a fortune and require high pressure (beyond my scope, I'm afraid). I can get the bubbles almost to nano...almost
Have you tried this method before?

My point though is how do you know you got your bubbles close to nano? Nano bubbles are a metric defined by humans and thus can't be proven present without measuring them. I haven't tried to produce nano bubbles in my tank although I've used air stones to create bubbles of undefined size in skimmers and have seen the well documented correlation between O2, ORP and increased health that comes along with it. I just don't see any new correlation from this...

 

[Squamosa]

One point with regards to growth rates...

It would be quite valuable (IMO) for folks posting growth rate info to have a measure of the day and night pH before and after starting bubbling.

The reason is that one main hypothesized reasons for growth rate differences is the change in pH, and the change in pH will (should) be in different dirfections for different tanks, so the effect on growth rate might actually go in different directions as well.

Tanks with a deficit of CO2 with respect to the air being used will show a drop in pH, and those with an excess of CO2 will show a rise in pH. SOem tanks may show different effects depending on the time in the light cycle, and the levels of CO2 in the home air.

FWIW, my reef tank that I had for 20 years always ran at a deficit of CO2 with respect to my home air, and when I increased aeration the pH dropped, and reduced the aeration (by stopping my skimmer, for example) the pH rose (because I use limewater which induces a pH deficit, but photosynthesis can also induce a deficit).

Good points raised, one I never thought of, I will measure the pH both before and after for one week. BTW. it was 8.1 before the bubbles came on

I expected my pH to be on the low side, as I run a calcium reactor with no kalk supplementation.

Also because the climate is hot in summer and mild in winter, we keep aeration going through the house, so CO2 build-up should be minimal and have negligible effect on pH.

 

[Squamosa]

My point though is how do you know you got your bubbles close to nano? Nano bubbles are a metric defined by humans and thus can't be proven present without measuring them. I haven't tried to produce nano bubbles in my tank although I've used air stones to create bubbles of undefined size in skimmers and have seen the well documented correlation between O2, ORP and increased health that comes along with it. I just don't see any new correlation from this...

We've tried to create a fast spinning vortex that shears the air into finer particle size and get a fine mist/fog forming (as can be seen in the posted video) in the tank, that takes up to 10 minutes to clear.

If we shine a simple hand held laser through the water we can get a scattering of light,normally I've read that laboratories would use the resonant mass measurement method to get a size of the bubbles.

 

[Squamosa]

I've just come across this recently (March 18) published study by Koweek et al. who used a computer model to test air/sea gas exchange rates, these models predicted that the exchange rates (of CO2) would be orders of magnitude higher in a bubbled system than a non-bubbled one.

They then went on to test this in a laboratory and found that by bubbling air into tanks filled with kelp at night time, the transfer of CO2 from the water to the air increased by up to 30 times.

The goal I think, is to take this system, up scale it and then introduce it upstream of a coral reef system and reduce CO2 concentrations over that area of reef, thereby spurring growth in the corals.

I, of course, have only read the blurb provided by Stanford University and the paper abstract, thus far
http://phys.org/news/2016-03-coral-reefs.html
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acs.est.5b04733

FWIW, I started manually measuring pH with a hand-held meter as kindly suggested by Randy and at lights out (21:00) the reading was 8.1,thereafter: 22:00 (8.1); 23:00 (8.1)...then I went to bed, started again at 6:00 (8.1) and last measured at 7:00 (8.1), then I went to work because this is just a hobby

I'll graph this out at the end of a week!

 

[Reefahholic]

The smaller the bubbles the more surface area. More surface area will allow export of organic waste/ impurities. They can be floated out of the water column. Or it can provide more contact for transferring oxygen or other gases into the water.

 

[Squamosa]

The smaller the bubbles the more surface area. More surface area will allow export of organic waste/ impurities. They can be floated out of the water column. Or it can provide more contact for transferring oxygen or other gases into the water.

Thanks for your input

 

[Brad Montgomery]

Why is this hobby full of people who only know one way? You have to do it there way or they get mad throw a little temper tantrum and act like 2 year old's. I've been in the hobby many years seen new things come and go. Everything has to be proven by a scientist for some to believe and even if it is proven they wont accept it anyway because its not their way. I also understand the theory of if it aint broke don't fix it. So for those people do what you do and all will be fine.. Without people trying new techniques and procedures wouldn't we be stuck in the 80's and 90's where reef keeping was a tough hobby and we could only keep very few live aquaria? With that being said There is no progress without experimentation. I remember not to long ago Led lights were what everyone was pointing their fingers saying it couldn't be done. Yes I too would like to see scientific proof one way or another if this is good or harmful in any way. I think it is pretty safe to say though that the bubbles in this aquarium isn't killing coral like once believed. I have given the bubbling a try and have seen a lot of slime mucous and detritus lifted up off coral rock and the sand bed that wasn't doing so before I started with flow alone. I honestly feel We skim our water in a protein skimmer why not skim our whole tank? I have only seen positive in my own tank as well. My sponges are fine and multiplying I think people are looking at bubbles and air trapped in spongeas one in the same and its two totaly different situations. My coral seems to have better color and growing. Is the growth faster than normal or not I dont know because I dont have 2 of each coral in 2 systems one bubbling and one not. I do know Im not killing anything and everything is thriving. So my concern is this...I recently bought 2 clams and in theory clams and air don't mix like sponge and air do not mix but sponge seems to be fine. Anyone out there giving bubbles a try seeing any adverse reactions with their clams? Squamosa stated he hasnt heard of any issues with sponge and clams but does anyone have any hard proof or am I going to be the Guinea pig

 

[mikejrice]

Most clams live in tidal zones. I wouldn't worry about air bothering them.

 

[Brad Montgomery]

Thanks Mike. I honestly didnt think so because they can expel themselves. But.... Ive read and been told dont expose them to air. Probably a warning not to get squirted in the mouth by them lol.

 

[mikejrice]

Done that a few times while checking for pests on clams haha