Micro and nano bubble tank treatment

[Squamosa]

even throughout the day

My water turbidity is visibly different from hour to hour?

use RODI water as zero

Why use RO/DI to 'blank' it will have 0 TDS, your 'before bubble test' can be the blank, get a value and see how the value changes after the bubbles, see how high it goes.

 

[cb684]

Why use RO/DI to 'blank' it will have 0 TDS, your 'before bubble test' can be the blank, get a value and see how the value changes after the bubbles, see how high it goes.

The reason is because it would be difficult to get a pre-bubble test (bubbling would be happening several times throughout the time). It might be a better idea to use fresh mixed saltwater (FMS) then...
Now if I am going to do this only once to know the capacity of my bubbling system, them probably I would use something like this:

M0 min - FMS = A1
M20 min - FMS = A2
A2 - A1 = capacity of the system to produce micro-nano bubbles. (20 minutes is a subjective number, it might need to be changed).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think huge confusion has arisen over very simple terminology, we are after the true nano-bubble, the one that conforms to weird van der Waals state and departure from the ideal gas law.

Agreed, the smaller the better

How do you know what bubble sizes are best for what?

 

[cb684]

How do you know what bubble sizes are best for what?

That is a good question. I got interested on the smaller (less than 50 to 100 micrometers) because they appear to be better for the two observed results that IMO are less subjective (Potential of increase O2 saturation and improvement of skimming). The other observations have far more variables and will be very hard to prove. Again, IMO.

Edit: I meant they will be hard to test...

 

[Squamosa]

The reason is because it would be difficult to get a pre-bubble test (bubbling would be happening several times throughout the time). It might be a better idea to use fresh mixed saltwater (FMS) then...
Now if I am going to do this only once to know the capacity of my bubbling system, them probably I would use something like this:

M0 min - FMS = A1
M20 min - FMS = A2
A2 - A1 = capacity of the system to produce micro-nano bubbles. (20 minutes is a subjective number, it might need to be changed).

Looks good to me, give it a go

Good luck

 

[cb684]

Ha. Got the quote from both companies. From Anzai MCS is 3,400 U$, from river forest is 195 U$. So it is settled I will get the riverforest one.

 

[Squamosa]

How do you know what bubble sizes are best for what?

The way they moved randomly through the water exhibiting Brownian motion was fascinating to me
Yasui, K., Tuziuti, T., Kanematsu, W. and Kato, K., 2016. Dynamic equilibrium model for a bulk nanobubble and a microbubble partly covered with hydrophobic material. Langmuir.

IMO. I think a micro-sized bubble will be effective, but I don't really know, although there are budding physicists and engineers around here by the looks of it who will try to prove us right or wrong...either way, what fun!

 

[Squamosa]

Ha. Got the quote from both companies. From Anzai MCS is 3,400 U$, from river forest is 195 U$. So it is settled I will get the riverforest one.

You little so and so. I was looking at that one, but can't afford the $500 price tag over here

Now I'm really looking forward to your results

 

[Squamosa]

You little so and so. I was looking at that one, but can't afford the $500 price tag over here

Now I'm really looking forward to your results

I want to add further.

We wanted to experiment with this method and be as cheap as possible, hence the wooden block method, while still seeing if we could get any noticeable change in our animals and possibly water chemistry, this probably resulted in us getting true sized nano-bubbles in the range of 1-5% and lots of microbubbles!

We then graduated to our own bubble shearer/shredder, this gave us many more bubbles and probably a little higher percentage of true nano-sized bubbles, maybe in the 10% range (speculating here).

Our aims were:
Try not to kill any fish, corals, snails, clams, sponges (this was a very important aim for us, as we love our tanks and have invested considerably in them).
To see if the health and vigour of the fish increased
To see if coral health,vigour,growth and colour improved
To see if the rocks and sand would clean up
To see if GHA would wither away

So what did I/we learn:

Nothing died or has died to this point-63 days in! I can't stress this point enough, no deaths!

Fish are as hungry as ever and to my eye are extremely lively, grazing constantly (and bickering, some of them) and exhibit very good colour

I have baby snails (Trochus sp.) everywhere, take that anyway you like!

Now here's the thing, those of you who are obsessive Acropora keepers know that you can recognise every bump and ridge on your corals and know when something is not right and you also know when things are going well.Well my corals exhibit good PE, grow exceptionally well,more than i've ever seen (in my mind), that little acro frag that sits on the rock and never does anything for months suddenly shoots axial branches and starts growing , that is happening to me. My corals all have multiple axial branches and I've had to turn my calcium reactor effluent rate up.

Rocks are clean and devoid of detritus and the same with the sand, not pearly white but clean

That little patch of GHA never goes away, that's what I have forceps for

We will stick with the bubbles for the foreseeable future, I can see no reason to stop at this point!

And that fresh, ocean smell of the water is unmistakable, I love it

Now some people here have gone out and procured devices that may make true sized nano-bubbles at a much higher percentage, maybe 50% or more, possibly causing the O2 saturation rate to go past 100% for prolonged periods. I would just be cautious of the time you spend bubbling now, as I think many continuous hours may bring on some of the gas bubble disease that was talked about earlier, this is all just my speculation of course.

Then again you may experience tremendous amounts of health and vigour in your system.
I, for one, am really curious to know

 

[cb684]

Now some people here have gone out and procured devices that may make true sized nano-bubbles at a much higher percentage, maybe 50% or more, possibly causing the O2 saturation rate to go past 100% for prolonged periods. I would just be cautious of the time you spend bubbling now, as I think many continuous hours may bring on some of the gas bubble disease that was talked about earlier, this is all just my speculation of course.

That is correct. That is why I would not do that in my main system. I will do in a frag tank that have very few fish and corals.

 

[Squamosa]

very few fish and corals

Good, just keep an eye on them

 

[Reefahholic]

How do you know what bubble sizes are best for what?

It would appear from what we've seen and heard from other reefers that using smaller bubbles are most benificial. Waste water plants aren't using large bubbles and we know and a smaller micro bubble would stay suspended in the water column longer and hopefully soak up unwanted detritus/ organic matter floating around and send it into the socks or skimmer. That's the plan anyway, I think we're just kinda going with it to see what happens. Don't know unless you try right.?

 

[Squamosa]

Don't know unless you try right.

Keep going, keep going, the smaller the better I would say

 

[Reefahholic]

Keep going, keep going, the smaller the better I would say

Ohh I'm going. I'm off but work nights, so when I wake up later it's on. Plus I have like 4 days off to play.

 

[Cruz_Arias]

How do you know what bubble sizes are best for what?

If you want more lift and buoyancy, scoot the airstone closer to the intake of the return pump... (skimmer like)
If you want more nanobubbles being generated, place the limewood airstone in a high flow laminar flow area (such as the weir right before the return pump section) where the water flow and pressure shears the bubbles as the airpump is pushing them out...

Similar example is a noodle machine... the faster you "chop" the noodle string, the smaller and shorter it gets...

 

[reef_ranch]

Squamosa:

I appreciate your detailed observations. Can you tell us more about the condition of the tank pre-application and have you considered whether the progress you are observing could be the result of other factors? I understand from looking at your previous posts that you've been through alot with your tank in the last year and had to do a partial (of full, I'm not sure) reboot. If that is the case, then have you considered the normal maturation process as a contributing factor. (If, I'm wrong, ignore this question.) In my experience, it takes a tank a good year or two to get to the point where everything has found its balance and the corals start to take off. I know that when my tank hit the 2 year mark it went from decent growth and PE to amazing without changing much at all. What are your thoughts on this?

And regardless the age of the system, would you agree that a good test of the hypothesis would be to stop bubbling for a month record your observations that start again? I'd understand if you didn't want to risk upsetting the acro cart, but science!

 

[Reeflogic]

I'm really curious to see your results @Reefahholic ! I feel my bubbles are fairly small and of various sizes, but not nearly the amount you are considering pushing through! Keep us updated

Thanks for your research and persistent positive attitude Tony! I know it's just bubbles and so much still to know and understand, but it's very exciting to me, lol!

 

[Cruz_Arias]

The premise behind turning the DT into a DAF (Dissolved Air Floatation Zone) has been proven time and time again in the waste water / water treatment world.
The science behind it, increase buoyancy in suspended particulates and float them out (aka nutrient transport to the sump or in waste treatment, the sludge basin)
Without this the DT becomes a settling point for Reef tanks because of the non uniformity of struture or flow... behind rock work etc... I'm not particular in how this is done except for one item. NON PRESSURIZED DELIVERY.
Pressurization causes a lot of problems such as mentioned before, GBD, the Bends, etc

Yes... oxygenation is only part of it... the other is nutrient transport to the sump to be removed... Flow does not change the bouyancy of suspended particulates or undissolved detritus... this method helps bring the junk to the skimmer/sump/refugium area to be removed.

 

[ruppertb]

I had done this years ago but never really for an extended period.

I have a few questions for anyone who can answer. When you run the bubbles do you notice a water level increase in your sump do to the fact that your return isn't carrying as much water? I tried this in my sump last night and my sump level rose by about two gallons. So I stopped as I wasn't sure if it would continue to rise while I was asleep.

Also if I were to do this in a tank without a sump would it be better for me to add the bubblers to a powerhead near the top of the tank and let it move them around or would I be able to run the air stone to a powerhead on the back bottom and run the bubble out of that one. Tried both and the bottom choice seems to create smaller bubbles and push them around better but I was curious if all the bubbles accumulating under rock ledges would cause die off if they stayed there and didn't find there way to the surface. Thanks

 

[Cruz_Arias]

I had done this years ago but never really for an extended period.

I have a few questions for anyone who can answer. When you run the bubbles do you notice a water level increase in your sump do to the fact that your return isn't carrying as much water? I tried this in my sump last night and my sump level rose by about two gallons. So I stopped as I wasn't sure if it would continue to rise while I was asleep.

Also if I were to do this in a tank without a sump would it be better for me to add the bubblers to a powerhead near the top of the tank and let it move them around or would I be able to run the air stone to a powerhead on the back bottom and run the bubble out of that one. Tried both and the bottom choice seems to create smaller bubbles and push them around better but I was curious if all the bubbles accumulating under rock ledges would cause die off if they stayed there and didn't find there way to the surface. Thanks

If this is happening, the return pump is taking on too much air...
This is not good... at this point, you'd want to move the airstone FURTHER away from the intake... to only suck in the smaller suspended bubbles.

Then you will not experience the same thing happening again... we put our air stone at the bottom in the weir chamber right before the return pump chamber... but this is our preference. This way the larger bubbles rise up and the smaller sheared bubbles are in suspension for the return pump to suck up.

And at the edge of rock work, the bubbles are so small, they do not lodge anywhere...