Micro Scrubbing Bubbles.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Lasse said:
For a normal aquarium - yes - the gas exchange happens when the popping bubbles reach the surface and create a large interface between the water and air.

But in sewage treatment plants - there is technics that create so small bubbles (not nano - but small) that because of their small size and the long residence times manage to oxygenate as good as surface movement (and better). Directly translated from Swedish – their name is membrane aerators. Do not know the English name. But this bubbles are injected rather deep (I was working with basins of 4 meters depth) Per meter – they gives around the same oxygen content to the water as you get per meter of a contra aerated Trickling filter.

Many years ago when the diffusers was new to the fresh water hobby – I did a test to see if they did what they should. I use three or four different brands (and pumps) placed 0.3 meter below the surface of a 40 cubic meters fish tank with treated waste water. The pumps did not created a larger interface between the air and the water and they was placed so it did not transfer the bottom water upp to the surface. It was a lot of oxygen consumption in that tank. As soon I turn the inlet down – the oxygen level was going down.

To my surprise – one of them did what it says to do. Oxygen the water without disturbing the surface. There was the same oxygen level at the bottom as it was at the surface. And this was fresh water. The other three was not working the way it should.

So my conclusion is that if the bubbles is small enough (not nano size!) and the residence time is enough – they will oxygenate the water (or take away oxygen if the water is supersaturated). I believe that this happens all the time in the skimmer! See my graph in an earlier post there the oxygen content stabilizes around 90 % saturation during night.

Sincerely Lasse

Ok... so you're implying all skimmers work the same... have the same dissolution coefficient, have the same bubble size, are practically ALL THE SAME.
We all KNOW this is NOT TRUE!

Until there is a STANDARD TO GRADE A SKIMMER CORRECTLY based on bubbles size production and total dwell time internal to the skimmer chamber AND DIRECTIONS telling people to run their Airline OUTSIDE to FRESH AIR, then there will always be compounded issues

Until then, a small airpump and a limewood air stone strategically placed in an area of high LAMINAR FLOW will suffice without having to re-train hobbyists on how they have learned to REEF.

Tautog · Apr 5, 2016

Lasse said:
For a normal aquarium - yes - the gas exchange happens when the popping bubbles reach the surface and create a large interface between the water and air.

But in sewage treatment plants - there is technics that create so small bubbles (not nano - but small) that because of their small size and the long residence times manage to oxygenate as good as surface movement (and better). Directly translated from Swedish – their name is membrane aerators. Do not know the English name. But this bubbles are injected rather deep (I was working with basins of 4 meters depth) Per meter – they gives around the same oxygen content to the water as you get per meter of contra aerated Trickling filter.

Many years ago when the diffusers was new to the fresh water hobby – I did a test to see if they did what they should. I use three or four different brands (and pumps) placed 0.3 meter below the surface of a 40 cubic meters fish tank with treated waste water. The pumps did not created a larger interface between the air and the water and they was placed so it did not transfer the bottom water upp to the surface. It was a lot of oxygen consumption in that tank. As soon I turn the inlet down – the oxygen level was going down.

To my surprise – one of them did what it says to do. Oxygen the water without disturbing the surface. There was the same oxygen level at the bottom as it was at the surface. And this was fresh water. The other three was not working the way it should.

So my conclusion is that if the bubbles is small enough (not nano size!) and the residence time is enough – they will oxygenate the water (or take away oxygen if the water is supersaturated). I believe that this happens all the time in the skimmer! See my graph in an earlier post there the oxygen content stabilizes around 90 % saturation during night.

Sincerely Lasse

I'm not arguing about this topic anymore, it's really silly, but whatever, the fact is my water is crystal, my corals are open, if they were not happy they wouldn't look so good. My DT isn't a sewer, mixed with heavy solids. Our great sewer system here has been dumping waste into the bay, estuaries, for 30 years, and since Sandy, with NO sewage treatment plant, all waste went right into the bay. The result has been devastating. Algae blooms that choke and kill everything. Arent air bubbles added at sewage treatment plants to lighten the water so it doesn't clog the pipes. I have friends that work there, it's a joke. No one there cares to fix something that's been broken for years.
Remember, every tank runs a little different. I'm a master baker by trade, I could give 10 people the same recipe and get 10 different products. Try it with your friends, the results are funny!

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Lasse said:
For a normal aquarium - yes - the gas exchange happens when the popping bubbles reach the surface and create a large interface between the water and air.

But in sewage treatment plants - there is technics that create so small bubbles (not nano - but small) that because of their small size and the long residence times manage to oxygenate as good as surface movement (and better). Directly translated from Swedish – their name is membrane aerators. Do not know the English name. But this bubbles are injected rather deep (I was working with basins of 4 meters depth) Per meter – they gives around the same oxygen content to the water as you get per meter of a contra aerated Trickling filter.

Sincerely Lasse

We do not use membranes and blowers in a couple of our pilot plants utilizing ACTIVE DAF Systems. The digesting and trickle filtering works... but takes up way too much space.
As the population increases, the biological load increases... Hence we need to be more efficient in methodology.

http://www.ecologixsystems.com/dissolved-air-flotation-system.php

Tautog · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Ok... so you're implying all skimmers work the same... have the same dissolution coefficient, have the same bubble size, are practically ALL THE SAME.
We all KNOW this is NOT TRUE!

Until there is a STANDARD TO GRADE A SKIMMER CORRECTLY based on bubbles size production and total dwell time internal to the skimmer chamber AND DIRECTIONS telling people to run their Airline OUTSIDE to FRESH AIR, then there will always be compounded issues

Until then, a small airpump and a limewood air stone strategically placed in an area of high LAMINAR FLOW will suffice without having to re-train hobbyists on how they have learned to REEF.

No, all skimmers are NOT the same, but all skimmers need the waste to perform. There's a simple solution to all of this, stop feeding your DT 5-10 times a day

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Tautog said:
I'm not arguing about this topic anymore, it's really silly, but whatever, the fact is my water is crystal, my corals are open, if they were not happy they wouldn't look so good. My DT isn't a sewer, mixed with heavy solids. Our great sewer system here has been dumping waste into the bay, estuaries, for 30 years, and since Sandy, with NO sewage treatment plant, all waste went right into the bay. The result has been devastating. Algae blooms that choke and kill everything. Arent air bubbles added at sewage treatment plants to lighten the water so it doesn't clog the pipes. I have friends that work there, it's a joke. No one there cares to fix something that's been broken for years.
Remember, every tank runs a little different. I'm a master baker by trade, I could give 10 people the same recipe and get 10 different products. Try it with your friends, the results are funny!

Agreed...

The method was only proposed and introduced as ANOTHER WAY to do things...
What works for your system works... No arguments there...

What works for others, might not work for you...

So Yes... I AGREE FLOATATION WORKS... I also work at Waste Stream Management in World Class Chemical Facilities...
It's also known for it's ability to SEPERATE (hence Dissolve Air Floatation Separators)

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Ahhh... Clarifiers and Float Seperators...

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Thales said:
I think you have missed the central point.

They certainly did, though.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Tautog said:
Large air stone was set up in return pump area of sump, and filled DT for 8 hours.
One of those large blue ones
Yes

Yeah... that's not how we were generating the bubbles...
Limewood air stone... In a high flow laminar area... like the weir right before the return pump chamber.
AIRPUMP Located in a Fresh Air Location (outside or by an open window) Not on the Floor and Not under, in the sump area. The sump area (in a residential setup) is typically the place of the highest degassing of CO2 in the Overflow Return chamber to the sump...

Thales · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
Here is the patent not held by me.
http://www.google.com/patents/US20070286795

As I mentioned before, our designs are pending and has been filed.
Different mechanisms and different delivery.

The benefits are addressing TWO key items in the domestic reef... (In a home)

1. Proper Gas Exchange (Aeration... which, yes, a skimmer can do also but this is boosting the dissolution of fresh air a bit faster)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673973/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021979708012915

http://www.google.com/patents/US20070286795

2. Floatation of debris (DAF Wastewater Systems Clarification/Clarifiers)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301751615000265
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_bubble_diffusers

https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevie...rocoagulation-and-hydrodynamics-in-mpaOhtm9bt

Sure, there are other means of doing the same thing, but watt per watt, running an airstone and airpump is more cost effective than running various reactors.

Is it magic? No.
Is it a silver bullet? No.
Is it helping hobbyist reefers? YES...
It is another tool to help the HOBBY.
Can it help in public aquaria? YES.
Has it helped a large number of hobbyists across the world with common aquaria issues? Yes, again.

Just a method, a practice, giving back to the hobby what the hobby has given to me.
Sharing of "Best Practices". :)

Hopefully this "Clarifies", pun intended, this misunderstanding on if it is a REQUIREMENT to do. It is NOT a REQUIREMENT .
It is an OPTION AND A CHOICE.

:) Happy Reefing and thanks for discussing, Richard.

That is hardly the list of things that people are saying that bubbling does, and you are not addressing any of the things I brought up in my post - you keep changing the goalposts. Corals sliming and increased PE seems to be two of the major things people are reporting as benefits from bubbling, neither of which have been shown to be good for corals, and in fact, the creation of mucus is often a stress reaction and comes at a high metabolic cost.
You have also made a huge point of saying that there is no money to be made here, yet you are patenting a piece of equipment.
I too am giving back to what the hobby has given me and sharing best practices by posting about the need for more evidence to support your claims. And again, to head off the idea that I am personally attacking you, that I hate new ideas, that I need to just try it myself, etc, I want this to be true, just like I want all amazing claims about simplicity and efficacy to be true.

Number 1, has not been shown to be true - just saying that it increases gas exchange doesn't make it true. You are simply not doing what they did in the studies that you linked - you are not injecting nanobubbles (I am not even looking at the plausibility of the studies) like they did, you are adding fine bubbles and you are not performing electrolysis. Nice studies, but they don't seem applicable. More importantly, if there is increased gas exchange, it is likely you can get the same effect by not putting bubbles into the display which may be stressing corals (note that that doesn't say they are not dealing with the stress).
As for the second, no one is, or has argued that DAF doesn't happen, but you also haven't show that it is better or different from any other method of removing stuff from reef aquariums. This would be very easy to show and we could then stop talking about it.

:D

Thales · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
They certainly did, though.

No they did not, and that has absolutely nothing to do with you missing the point they were making. Saying 'they missed my point' does nothing to say that you didn't miss theirs, and theirs had pretty much nothing to do with bubbling, rather about the discussion around bubbling. This is the point I really wish you would get - we are all on the same side.

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Utilizing smaller and smaller bubbles to increase buoyancy in larger particles is the innovation...
Generating the smaller and smaller bubbles is the innovation...

Utilizing smaller and smaller bubbles to increase buoyancy in larger particles is the innovation...
Generating the smaller and smaller bubbles is the innovation...

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Thales said:
That is hardly the list of things that people are saying that bubbling does, and you are not addressing any of the things I brought up in my post - you keep changing the goalposts. Corals sliming and increased PE seems to be two of the major things people are reporting as benefits from bubbling, neither of which have been shown to be good for corals, and in fact, the creation of mucus is often a stress reaction and comes at a high metabolic cost.
You have also made a huge point of saying that there is no money to be made here, yet you are patenting a piece of equipment.
I too am giving back to what the hobby has given me and sharing best practices by posting about the need for more evidence to support your claims. And again, to head off the idea that I am personally attacking you, that I hate new ideas, that I need to just try it myself, etc, I want this to be true, just like I want all amazing claims about simplicity and efficacy to be true.

Number 1, has not been shown to be true - just saying that it increases gas exchange doesn't make it true. You are simply not doing what they did in the studies that you linked - you are not injecting nanobubbles (I am not even looking at the plausibility of the studies) like they did, you are adding fine bubbles and you are not performing electrolysis. Nice studies, but they don't seem applicable. More importantly, if there is increased gas exchange, it is likely you can get the same effect by not putting bubbles into the display which may be stressing corals (note that that doesn't say they are not dealing with the stress).
As for the second, no one is, or has argued that DAF doesn't happen, but you also haven't show that it is better or different from any other method of removing stuff from reef aquariums. This would be very easy to show and we could then stop talking about it.

:D

I told you those were OBSERVATIONS...
If someone has an old junky car... and you put new tires on it... would it handle better in the rain with the new rain tires?
If someone had an issue with not drinking enough water and he doesn't feel too good (dehydration)... and you introduce him to a particular type of bottled water... and he feels better and looks better... did bottle water cure him?

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Thales said:
No they did not, and that has absolutely nothing to do with you missing the point they were making. Saying 'they missed my point' does nothing to say that you didn't miss theirs, and theirs had pretty much nothing to do with bubbling, rather about the discussion around bubbling. This is the point I really wish you would get - we are all on the same side.

They didn't even understand how it works... she kept saying "I guess" and then the guy blurts out "A TON OF BUBBLES"...

No... it was a mist of bubbles... a haze... not injected... not "shot into" the water....

Words mean a lot.. you taught me at least that... supposition and word choice can persuade or dissuade an audience... and their tone was already derogatory...

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

Thales said:
No they did not, and that has absolutely nothing to do with you missing the point they were making. Saying 'they missed my point' does nothing to say that you didn't miss theirs, and theirs had pretty much nothing to do with bubbling, rather about the discussion around bubbling. This is the point I really wish you would get - we are all on the same side.

They called it "MAGIC SILVER BULLET"

This is NOT... This has helped Stabilize Home reef systems... because of TWO identified deficiencIES.
Does Red Bull Give you Wings? No.
But it sure as hell makes it feel like you do IF YOU drink ENOUGH. LOL :)
:)

Cruz_Arias · Apr 5, 2016

The benefits to micro-nanobubbling are addressing TWO key items in the domestic reef... (In a home)

1. Proper Gas Exchange (Aeration... which, yes, a skimmer can do also but this is boosting the dissolution of fresh air a bit faster)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3673973/
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0021979708012915

http://www.google.com/patents/US20070286795

2. Floatation of debris (DAF Wastewater Systems Clarification/Clarifiers)
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0301751615000265
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine_bubble_diffusers
https://www.deepdyve.com/lp/elsevie...rocoagulation-and-hydrodynamics-in-mpaOhtm9bt

Sure, there are other means of doing the same thing, but watt per watt, running an airstone and airpump is more cost effective than running various reactors.

Is it magic? No.
Is it a silver bullet? No.
Is it helping hobbyist reefers? YES...
It is another tool to help the HOBBY.
Can it help in public aquaria? YES.
Has it helped a large number of hobbyists across the world with common aquaria issues? Yes, again.
Just a method, a practice, giving back to the hobby what the hobby has given to me.
Sharing of "Best Practices". :)

Hopefully this "Clarifies", pun intended, this misunderstanding on if it is a REQUIREMENT to do. It is NOT a REQUIREMENT .
It is an OPTION AND A CHOICE.

Thales · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
I told you those were OBSERVATIONS...
If someone has an old junky car... and you put new tires on it... would it handle better in the rain with the new rain tires?
If someone had an issue with not drinking enough water and he doesn't feel too good (dehydration)... and you introduce him to a particular type of bottled water... and he feels better and looks better... did bottle water cure him?

Those are hardly analogous as we have reams of directly related evidence to support those ideas. What this is more analogous to is claims that nanobubble water makes people feel better than regular water or that nanobubble infused tires handle better than regular tires.

When you post analogies like those you come close to the argumentation that homeopathy and ionic bracelets use, which is bad argumentation...dare I say specious or fallacious without you again saying that using those words is a personal attack?

Observations are wrong all the time. People think they are seeing effects that aren't happening all the time. That is the point of evidence and testing - to see if effects people think they see are really happening.

Thales · Apr 5, 2016

Cruz_Arias said:
They called it "MAGIC SILVER BULLET"

They said it was being presented as a magic silver bullet, and it was, and in some places still is. They also said a whole lot more about the discussion. The discussion is the main point of that podcast, not the actual method.