Mike Paletta finally recognizes some of the superior qualities of METAL HALIDES over LEDs...

[A. grandis]

So lets get this straight he had one or 2 out of dozens of coral species change to a "bad" color?
Diverging from unliked coloration to different coloration who exactly decides on what the " real" color should be.

Color shifts under different spectrum are a given regardless of tech. Dana has a nice vid on it.

Won' t even get into the reflective differences in spectrum that make identical pigments look a different color.

Unless that particular coral was collected bright fluorescent yellow as it was under halides and became lame gray under LEDs. Agree? Well, you never had a reef tank, but that is what happens. Trust me. For that particular genus we would need to have a bright fluorescent yellow Porites colony to be collected from the ocean to show such bright fluorescent yellow under halides too. You would never collect a gray Porites from the ocean and "make it yellow" no matter what. It could turn to white or beige instead. What about the rest of the corals? Videos have shown also dead spots under and above his colonies also, besides coloration. Natural growth rate is compromised.
It has been said by Mike in one of the videos that Sanjay used to grow some of the most desirable corals in the hobby under halides like cinder blocks and their colors were the most amazing because of the speed of the growth, profusely. In MY point of view, the corals' natural speed of growth dictates how fast that particular species should be growing in captivity to represent it's natural full health/ metabolism. If their growth is significantly compromised, or controlled, they won't be able to metabolize as they should. natural growth rates then would possibly also contribute to it's abilities of sexual reproduction, immunization and pigment formation. But that is my point of view.
Most importantly is the overall appearance of the system as a whole. Dead spot and such, shows weaker colonies, unhealthy in the long run. Just like many other friends have been complaining about around the world. But only if they know better!
No arguments against facts, right?

 

[A. grandis]

There’s something to that though. I had zero success with true “yellow” corals under everything but halide. Had nothing to do with pigmentation under a different light. There are some colors that can be difficult (not impossible) under LED but are great under halide. In my experience the reverse of that is not true.

Same here, specially yellow pigments. I had success with some T5 bulb combos to an extent, but the halides are just amazing!!!! No comparison! Some of the blue pigments too. Well... reds, pinks... They just look more flourishing after the system is mature you just die looking at the colonies!!! But yes, the yellows are tremendously noticeable. Some of the green/yellow fluorescence too. So nice under halides.

 

[A. grandis]

Interesting! My pink floyd, meller yeller are greenish under my halides with or without OR3 blue sky and plus. When the OR3's are on and halides off both are vivid yellow.

When I had LEDs here some of my Palythoa were killing my eyes so bright green they were. LOL! In the ocean there were bright yellow. Under halides they were still bright yellow.

 

[X-37B]

When I had LEDs here some of my Palythoa were killing my eyes so bright green they were. LOL! In the ocean there were bright yellow. Under halides they were still bright yellow.

Interesting!. Maybe the difference is in the bulb K rating and manufacturer.
I get awesome color with just my 14K's.
However with the 2 OR3 bars on the colors are noticably enhanced even though the OR3 blues seem drowned out by the power of the halides.
They make a great supplement to my halide system.
Many have asked whats different with your system? The colors are much better.
Nothing has changed exceot the addituon of the OR3's.

 

[A. grandis]

Are you talking growth or just color?
Mercury based lights have an amber spike that most leds don't.

And there is no doubt different wavelengths encourage different pigments.
Thing is that's just different not "superior" for many. It can be but it gets somewhat into subjectivity.

Yes, it's kinda subjective.
IME all the corals collected and kept under sunlight were well represented the same under halides. Can't tell the same for those under LEDs though.
Still a matter of taste? Which is better? To resemble natural aspects of light and keep them as they would be in nature, of boost them with whatever we like for our own control and pleasure? Subjective indeed. That's when "personal taste" come in. I do respect that. Should we be concern about that though, aesthetically or ethically?
I think we would fine friends here that would agree both ways. Still we should understand the ins and outs of the matter as facts.

 

[i_am_mclovin]

Interesting! My pink floyd, meller yeller are greenish under my halides with or without OR3 blue sky and plus. When the OR3's are on and halides off both are vivid yellow.

That is interesting! I only speak from my experience so I cannot discount yours. Good to know.

 

[A. grandis]

Interesting!. Maybe the difference is in the bulb K rating and manufacturer.
I get awesome color with just my 14K's.
However with the 2 OR3 bars on the colors are noticably enhanced even though the OR3 blues seem drowned out by the power of the halides.
They make a great supplement to my halide system.
Many have asked whats different with your system? The colors are much better.
Nothing has changed exceot the addituon of the OR3's.

The 20ks will represent more energy, as Tullio have said, and the 14Ks will have more PAR (intensity). 14Ks are the bulbs of my preference, but the 20Ks, like the Radium, with the proper ballast, will give a bright white that will actually be more easy on the corals. There is a relationship also with the other light supplements, like T5s and LEDs. I use 4 X T5s in my Spectra and it will certainly make a big difference when I have 4 X Blue Plus, or 2 X Blue Plus and 2 X 10K, for example. The balance needs to be there for each species too. But no matter what type of halides I have here, the yellows are always amazing!!! 14Ks are the best though! Like Sanjay always say... the is enough evidence to show that corals absorb throughout the whole spectrum. IME the 14K Ushio has given me the very best results under the proper ballasts they recommend! Results so close to what we see in nature that it is hard for my kids to tell if I just collected them o not.
I also tested the new Hamilton 14K with electronic for a year and it's very impressive to me. I also had the Hamilton 20K with electronic ballast for a year with amazing results. The yellows were there too!! Love'em all!

 

[X-37B]

The 20ks will represent more energy, as Tullio have said, and the 14Ks will have more PAR (intensity). 14Ks are the bulbs of my preference, but the 20Ks, like the Radium, with the proper ballast, will give a bright white that will actually be more easy on the corals. There is a relationship also with the other light supplements, like T5s and LEDs. I use 4 X T5s in my Spectra and it will certainly make a big difference when I have 4 X Blue Plus, or 2 X Blue Plus and 2 X 10K, for example. The balance needs to be there for each species too. But no matter what type of halides I have here, the yellows are always amazing!!! 14Ks are the best though! Like Sanjay always say... the is enough evidence to show that corals absorb throughout the whole spectrum. IME the 14K Ushio has given me the very best results under the proper ballasts they recommend! Results so close to what we see in nature that it is hard for my kids to tell if I just collected them o not.
I also tested the new Hamilton 14K with electronic for a year and it's very impressive to me. I also had the Hamilton 20K with electronic ballast for a year with amazing results. The yellows were there too!! Love'em all!

Well I run 14K de phoenix with m80 ballasts on my 120.
14K single end on my 45 frag system with electronic ballast.
The colors are different in both systems with just the halides on.

I get better more vibrant colors with the de than the mogal. However that may be do to the OR3 blues.


All parameters are close in both systems.

 

[TaylorPilot]

LEDs are trash...I wouldn't even use them on my christmas tree....

 

[A. grandis]

Well I run 14K de phoenix with m80 ballasts on my 120.
14K single end on my 45 frag system with electronic ballast.
The colors are different in both systems with just the halides on.

I get better more vibrant colors with the de than the mogal. However that may be do to the OR3 blues.


All parameters are close in both systems.

I think pigment fomation will also be somehow influenced by light supplementation. Traces and other influences also play, so... All the bulbs changes here were done in the same tank.

 

[X-37B]

LEDs are trash...I wouldn't even use them on my christmas tree....

Lol! Lets see your christmas tree lit with halides!.

 

[A. grandis]

LEDs are trash...I wouldn't even use them on my christmas tree....

I would. LOL!

 

[TaylorPilot]

Lol! Lets see your christmas tree lit with halides!.

I am joking, but in all seriousness, we have color changing LED lights on the tree this year, but all the LED warm white christmas tree lights look green. I can spot them from 300 feet away in Lowe's. I replaced the incandescent lights in my stove vent with LED ones and jerked them out after an hour, they flickered unless on on full brightness even though it said they would dim. Plus they were a little green as well.

To me, the best looking tanks are the ones that use all three light sources MH, T5 and LED. No one really disagrees on this. It is just the form factor and that they put out heat. Neither of those are an issue for me. I feel like most people keep their house hotter than I do. I don't have a tank setup right now, but last time I did I had a single 250 DE MH with 2 t5 over a 40B. Never had heat problems. I still had to run a heater for most of the day. If I setup a tank any time soon, it will probably be a 180 with 3 DE Usio 14k, 2 T5 ATI Blue Plus and 2 of the reef brite XHO Actnic Blue Strips.

 

[kittenbritches]

@kittenbritches Throw your Rock Collection at 'em

I value my rocks too much!

I do have some old veg I could part with, though!

We get that you like halide. There have been multiple threads with rehashing of the same thing with nothing new added. Nuff said.

Grandis you must someday realize it wasn’t LEDs that killed your family, it was the Joker! Your crusade is misguided, fight crime, not LEDs!

I'll help you with that

your idea of a debate is to spam R2R until everyone agrees with you?

Have you seen the definition of spam?
Do you think the subject of the thread is worth of a discussion?
I'm actually waiting for YOU, or ANYONE here to discuss the possible benefits of metal halides for reef tanks over ANY LEDs. Or discuss how LEDs could surpass it's benefits as facts from practical experiences in a polite way.
I think that is what a forum like this would exist for.
Lighting is the subject.

This is always the rip clean guy of lights. Year after year.

metal halide kink

Grandis - You do come across as a bit of a fanatical lunatic when you post the same topic/thread in multiple places. Although it may not meet your webster's dictionary definition, I think general society would agree what you did is considered spamming and most people will take offense to that. When conveying info you want people to pay attention to and absorb, it's helpful to try and not be the most irritating person in the room.

we all should know the facts, not to trust propaganda

I did not published "multiple posts in different forums" as some may claim.

The OP SEEMS to just be using it in a slightly dishonest - or at least not completely honest way - to justify his opinions about MH and LED.

you think that BRS and other retailers not selling metal halides is some conspiracy to push LEDs?

Here we go guys...
There is absolutely no comparison in results between LEDs and halides in many ways IMO. No matter what you guys say. If you have experience with halides you know there is something there that T5s and LEDs don't have. Are they better? For the RESULTS I want, yes!!!! There is no way to deny that. The corals are healthier, the colonies grow uniform and the true pigmentation is formed like in the ocean. The light is well distributed throughout the whose system when using the right reflector. The wide range of pigmentation produced by the corals under halides can't be beaten by any other light. They do resist to diseases like STN and RTN more than when they just survive under LEDs. Life is easier! Many have told me that, by observation, practically. That is why I think their immunization is also boosted. I don't need any scientific paper to tell me what we already know that happens. It's fact. Some friends also say halides will also be great against brown jelly disease. All anecdotal.
We can't prove most of the benefits we SEE under halides and DON'T SEE under LEDs scientifically. Do you need any scientific proof for what you see? How silly is that!!! Now... how many friends I have that use LEDs for WHATEVER REASON THEY FIND and see some halide tank and say " What?... that light kick buts" !?!? It does! LOL! The fact of the matter is that the RESULTS are much better in MY standards and the majority that actually had experiences with both will have to agree, and miss their halides. Is that a crime? You want to call that "personal preference"? So be! You like your colonies to be under blue LEDs? You like the colony structure to grow all weird? Fine. I don't. Still to this date I've never seen RESULTS from LEDs just like metal halides. It could be ok, but not the same in my opinion. So, after all that I would think we should at least consider and respect those who want to have it. Is it ok to PROMOTE HALIDES? Yes. Should we have them available for those who want to buy? Yes.
So, I THINK that after Mike revisited some of his pictures from when he had halides he is starting to realize that he just can't have the exact same RESULTS using LEDs for all the past years. Would that be something to think about? I think so.
What I THINK, and by my observations, is that the IR radiation from halides provide very similar radiation the sun emits. The spectrum from halides is from UV to IR, therefore a complete spectrum that can be used in high intensity, safely, providing everything (or almost everything in lighting) that the sun provides in the ocean and the LEDs CAN'T simply because they are not like halides in any way! The growth from halides is superb. There is no doubt that halides grow corals faster than LEDs. Period! The shimmering (caustic lines) is so similar to the sun that if you watch videos you just can't tell apart. Kids know that! LOL! Ask your grandma!!! She will tell you the truth! Ha! We actually had a reefer here that switched from LEDs to halides and his grandma said something like that.. LOL, anyways..
Now, when Mike was saying his LEDs were the best thing in the world, all LED users loved him so much! "Oh, see, he is one of the best authors out there, blah, blah, blah..." I said it would be just a matter of time until he would see the results and would go back to halides. I also said, and still say, same thing about Dr. Sanjay, the "guru of reef lighting"! I still believe he will get his halides back over his tank. Point is that most LED user defends their purchases like crazy (confirmation bias), or they don't care about results, or they actually don't know any better. You guys want LED to be the future, I get it. I once though it would be so great to have those "benefits" so many talked about. Too bad it doesn't work in practice. Unless you like those results. I don't.
If one of the most experienced guys in the world, that grows corals like mad, who really know reef lighting, who actually wrote so many important SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES and performed SCIENTIFIC EXPERIMENTS throughout his life about lighting, says halides will be still the best for his tank, even though he is still using one of the best selling LEDs ever... WOULD YOU BELIEVE? Do you think you know better? LOL!!!!!! Sorry, Dr. Sanjay knows better. You need any scientific paper to go against his thoughts? Are you joking? LOL!

BUT... see... I still respect you LED uses. I do! I have so many friends using LEDs... I know it's your tank and you do whatever you want. Just try to be more rational. Can you actually prove LEDs are BETTER than halide in terms of QUALITY of light using ANY scientific paper?? NO! If scientists can't prove halides are better, no one can, right? Besides, scientific experiments are performed in a total different manner from what we keep out tanks. The results from our systems are what we should look for. I think.

I'm glad Mike will try halides again. He is looking forward to make his tank better and will use his LEDs as a secondary source of light, what I've been suggested for so many years. Is that a problem? Yes, I'm happy to hear that. What if he doesn't like halides after he tries again? LOL! Will that mater to you then? LOL! Will your bias be conformed then?
I know what I want. Do you? That is what matters, my friends. Everyone is different and everyone will choose what fits best.

Go to a store that knows what they are doing and find a halide tank and cry in front of it!!!! You will have your heart stopped by the amazing MAGIC of those bulbs!!! Ha! Chiller will help in most cases! If you need a chiller you need a chiller.

Mike has been saying for years and years that his best tank ever was that 500gallon. He thought size would be the main reason why. I said the halides was the main reason. I think now he kinda understands some of my points.

Here are some shots of his tanks...
LEDS:

Mike Paletta's New Tank is UP and Running

Mike Paletta updates us on his 500-gallon reef tank.

www.reef2reef.com

METAL HALIDES:

My New Tank: By Mike Paletta

My New Tank: By Mike Paletta As I wrote in my last article for ReefBuilders last December, I am planning on setting up one last tank for myself. Over the years I have set up a fair number of tanks for myself as well as assisted on over 100 more...

www.reef2reef.com

Building my Last Reef Tank | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

As the year winds down we tend to look back on our failures and successes and the major events of the year, as well as ahead to the things that we want to accomplish and what we are looking forward to.

reefbuilders.com

BOOM!!!

Consider paragraph breaks, dawg.

 

[HeyLookItsCaps]

Yes, That's true. Most commercial LEDs aren't what they should, or do not cover what they claim.
Get the best LED panels you can afford side by side, like Lani, covering the entire suface area of your tank and you will have very similar results you have under T5s. I can't have the same results using T5s that I have under halides though. Not the same! They give you different results. Love ATI fixtures and bulbs!!!!! Amazing results for much less money than getting those LED panels, of course!!
Gotta love those 10 XMs!!! Sun in the house!

I run T5/LED hybrid nowadays. I will admit (even though how you speak and promote things feels like sandpaper) that my 150w sunpod with a 20k MH bulb was the key piece to my award winning 29g biocube back in 2010. Couldn’t keep the water under 80 no matter what I tried though.

the reason I like the hybrid is I get the T5 coloration and coverage and can adjust the led to supplement color by type. I could have my reef look like a 10k or a 20k with a controller, and I like that I can tune it to my liking. The main reason I think people went away from MH was heat and also electric cost.

 

[flyfisher2]

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

The public aquariums that I've been around have always used MH primarily.

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

 

[IslandLifeReef]

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

Would you repeat that please, I didn’t get it the first time LOL ;Woot

 

[A. grandis]

I value my rocks too much!

I do have some old veg I could part with, though!

Consider paragraph breaks, dawg.

You are beautiful and fun!
LOL! Love this crazy stuff! LOL!
Thanks for participating.

 

[A. grandis]

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

I visited the Georgia Aquarium in June of this year and had a behind the scenes tour of several systems including the Reef. They have an impressive system with crashing waves and a massive string of Metal Halides. My tour director informed me that they would soon be switching to LED's.

So now we know (2 times LOL!) that the Gerogia Aquarium wasn't included among the ones Tullio was refering to. The ones he was talking about already tried LEDs and went BACK to halides. I wish the Georgia Aquarium knew why they went back. That way they would save them some money! Or maybe they just like LEDs? Who knows. But that won't change facts, right?? So...
Thanks for the info anyways.

Ps: I'm not copying and paste, so you will see my message only once in this post.

 

[A. grandis]

Would you repeat that please, I didn’t get it the first time LOL ;Woot

If you want, I replied to the member on post #199. Click to expand and read again 2 more times. LOL!