MY OWN DIPPING REGIMEN, WITH IMPORTANT DISCLOSURE AND THE TRUTH ABOUT USING BAYER

Discussion in 'Battlecorals' started by Battlecorals, Jun 11, 2018.

  1. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    OK, so truly one of the most asked about topics I discuss are those questions about dipping and QT procedure. It's also true I am nothing short of bananas when it comes to pest control, and have discussed individually with many of you, my exact dip protocol over the years.

    I had been strong and vocal proponent of using Bayer on new arrivals for many years. Until one day, a customer of mine who was in the pesticides business, (who I hope will chime in here) essentially sat me down and told it to me straight, after having recommended to him Bayer like I normally did, following a really rough post dip prognosis after using one of the more popular commercial dips, where nearly all the frag I sent perished.

    It was only after I myself had killed colony after colony of beautiful acropora in some of the more popular available dips, that I was finally desperate enough to try bayer myself. And I did. And it worked well. But here is the problem, as it was detailed for me with genuine concern. To use, or even recommend the use of a product like Bayer for any purpose other than its intended use, it's literally against the law. Now what does that mean? Basically, that all of us are technically breaking the law, every time we use Bayer to dip our corals in. Now ultimately it's pretty unlikely that any legal ramifications will come reigning down on the casual hobbyist using Bayer so no need to panic and start jettisoning that Bayer just yet. But in my case, having been the person who recommended its use, put me in a potentially liable position.

    His example went something like this. If a customer of mine that I suggested Bayer to had a child come into contact with it and experience some kind of health problem, whether serious or minor, that I could potentially be responsible because it was my suggestion that he or she use the Bayer for a use outside of its intended purpose. Now again the chances are clearly slim that anything would go that far. But this information was all I needed to hear to become much less vocal, especially on public forums about using Bayer.

    It made sense to me, and he assured me that he knew first hand, that there are people who would go to great lengths to locate and prosecute, if the situation was brought before them. So that conversation was the genesis of my search for a new dip and the end of my public advocacy for Bayer and a coral dip. I would only send people info on my dipping protocol and Bayer dosages if they requested it, and would be very clear about the risks, and re-tell exactly the example about the child as it was explained to me. Ultimately slapping a giant, “Use at your own risk banner” to every email with the Bayer regimen included.

    [​IMG]

    This morning, after having sent that exact dip regime for the 100th+ time, (and yes, I always recommend a dip. No matter what. I have a zero exceptions policy, and that is the only way to go about keeping you system pest free) I felt it was finally the time to get vocal again about my exact dip regimen and to make aware some of the dangers and risks associated with using a product like Bayer as a dip. If there is anyone out there that can discredit, or validate this info, please feel free to share them here. I'd very much like to get some other perspectives on this as well from anyone else in the pesticides industry.

    So, I am going to go ahead and post a copy of the exact short write up I have been sending people for a few years now. This was actually going to be a write up that I fully intended to share here on the forums years ago, but after my chat with the pesticides pro I put it back on the shelf. I have since modified and tweaked it here and there, as my methods have been refined as well, and as you’ll read have been working toward finding another dip for a long time now, as I'd like to get away from using Bayer completely.


    Please make note that I am not advertising directly for any other dip here in any way. Nor am I or receiving any compensation at all for the mention of another dip. A much as I’d love to get a cupel free boxes of the stuff, I haven’t. I’m just stating that I have been using this dip with good results, and so far have not found anything else commercially available that I’d recommend instead. And if you have had good luck with another dip please feel free to share as well. Ultimately the general thrust of this write up, is to suggest a move away from Bayer, but here is the unpolished write up, complete with my exact dosages for Bayer as it stands.


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Here’s a quick write up on my new arrival regimen. I am a little more aggressive on stuff coming out of QT, but I still have never found a worm at the inspection phase of anything coming out. I’d like to think that my QT is pest free as well but I don’t assume this at all.


    My initial dosage is 3.5 oz bayer to about 1000ml water. If anything makes it through 15 min of that strength, I'll add another oz for good measure. I have had some acros stressed at the stronger dose, but haven't lost any yet. I have also been using a new dip by Polyp Lab called Reef Primer. I like it a lot in fact. It's clear so it's much easier to see whats going on, and it defiantly kills flatworms. Really hoping to move away from Bayer for good eventually, mostly because of longterm unknowns involved. I know that the reef primer is a safer product for sure. Still doing a double dip in Primer, then Bayer for good measure, ( see Bananas comment above) or I've even mixed them a few times now as an experiment. I generally implement a "scorched earth" type policy on new arrivals either way.


    Anyway, the best defense however has been an extremely thorough inspection. I believe that this has made all the difference in my efforts to keep pests out. I’ll take each frag or colony one at a time, before they go in the dip, and in a separate small bucket I’ll baste them real hard with a flash light in my mouth. If they have even a single worm, from adults to really tiny ones, on them, I will find them at this stage. In most wholesale orders I'll usually find at least one. On stuff from hobbyist and other vendors, every so often.


    If I do, I’ll isolate the worm in a small container like the pic below, and put a few drops of my prepared dip solution in there, and set my timer to 20 minutes. Usually within 10-15 min in the Primer they are immobile and/or very clearly dead, but this is not always the case when using Bayer. If they are not obviously dead, I’ll add some more bayer to the prepared dip and re-set the timer. This at least guarantees me that my dip is strong enough to kill them. If I find eggs on anything, coral, rock or plug, I toss them without hesitation. And don't believe anyone that says flatworms only lay eggs on skeleton, as illustrated in the second pic. Won't say exactly where these came from but if you are really curious let me know.


    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    One more area of importance when using Bayer is a very thorough rinse. I like to fill up 2 five gallon buckets and a smaller bucket. Once the dip is over I'll vigorously shake them and swirl in the smaller bucket in an effort to remove any remaining critters, and to get and much of the Bayer off as possible. Then I'll let them soak for at least 5-10 minutes in the big bucket, hen again for another 5-10 in the other bucket. Sometimes I'll do three just for good measure.













     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
    Berlibee, HairyGary, Bronc and 24 others like this.
    Tags:

  2. chefjpaul

    chefjpaul Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    2,859
    Location:
    NYC
    Great write up.

    I'm in NYC and can't get Bayer, but always load up when I travel to MD...breaking the law!!

    Ill be sure to check out polyp lab reef primer.
     
    Unlucky Eddy and pelphrey like this.
  3. raultsu

    raultsu Active Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2014
    Messages:
    311
    Likes Received:
    146
    I've bought Bayer in Brooklyn before. And I've ordered from Amazon too.

    Great write up Adam.
     
    Sabellafella and pelphrey like this.
  4. HolisticBear

    HolisticBear Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Location:
    NYC
    +1 for Amazon, what I did
     
    pelphrey likes this.
  5. chefjpaul

    chefjpaul Valuable Member R2R Supporter R2R Excellence Award Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    May 21, 2014
    Messages:
    2,489
    Likes Received:
    2,859
    Location:
    NYC
    I couldn't ever find it in nyc, I travel to MD often, and last time just picked up enough for several years.
     
    pelphrey and HolisticBear like this.
  6. ._Z_.

    ._Z_. Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2017
    Messages:
    125
    Likes Received:
    104
    Location:
    Houston TX
    Adam, do you ever use iodine based dips? For pests or other treatment reasons?
     
    Rispa and Dystinction like this.
  7. Dystinction

    Dystinction Active Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2013
    Messages:
    114
    Likes Received:
    136
    Location:
    Colorado Springs
    Good question @._Z_. , and I'm interested to know as well.
    It's my understanding that Iodine is more commonly used for soft corals and LPS with 'more meat', however, I am here to learn and share, and would like to hear from the Bananas-Guy as well.....

    Oh, and thank you for the write-up and information, BananaCorals....I mean BattleCorals! :cool:
     
    chefjpaul and ._Z_. like this.
  8. Caseyoidae

    Caseyoidae Well-Known Member Build Thread Contributor Hudson Valley Reef Keepers Catskill Reef Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    830
    Likes Received:
    533
    Location:
    Hudson Valley, NY
    Great write up as usual. I don’t think hobbiest are breaking the law in their own homes but unlicensed use in a aquaculture facility absolutely makes sense. Also not recommending to customers anymore makes sense
     
    chefjpaul likes this.
  9. Highgrade

    Highgrade Valuable Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2014
    Messages:
    1,636
    Likes Received:
    1,035
    Location:
    Arizona
    Great write up Adam!
     
    Battlecorals likes this.
  10. Tft12

    Tft12 Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2017
    Messages:
    94
    Likes Received:
    84
    Great write up!
     
  11. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Location:
    Wisconsin

    lol yeah i don't really use any iodine based dips myself. The last time i did was the old Tropic Marin Dip years ago. They may be effective for some things, including bacterial infections, but there are much better options for sps pests in my opinion.
     
  12. Abhishek

    Abhishek Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Squad R2R Excellence Award

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2016
    Messages:
    1,596
    Likes Received:
    1,512
    Location:
    Minneapolis, Minnesota
    Adam - First of all, the only person from whom when I get acros , I might even consider not dipping or quarantining are you for I know for sure that they will be fine . Infact, I did the same thing when i received my last box from you after 48 hrs due to fedex delay . Although, I became a little anxious after 2 days and once they settled did dip them.

    Now, I didn't know that you started using Reef Primer . I bought it too and tested on a smooth skin wild ice fire echinata and an aquacultutred 20K Lokani that I had for quite sometime. In that past, even with a standard dose of bayer I had issues with smooth skins if left in the solution for more than 15-20 mins.
    I did 10 mins in reef primer which is double their suggested time and even then nothing happened to the smoothie.
    I then dipped the last box I got from you in Reef Primer for 5 mins and they seemed fine.

    I haven't boycott Bayers yet and will continue to use it but I really like how my acros aren't loosing skins :) If a smooth skin like echinata and lokanis do not loose tissue, I feel confident on using on other acros .

    Just my 2 cents and novice experience .

    Regards,
    Abhishek
     
  13. Ssteve

    Ssteve Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2013
    Messages:
    420
    Likes Received:
    66
    Location:
    SF north Bay Area
    Thanks for the write up Adam. What’s your experience with revive? I’ve been using bayer then revive as I’ve heard revive will kill aefw and bayer doesnt
     
  14. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Location:
    Wisconsin

    Well i honestly didn't really want to call out any of the offending dips in this thread so ill tread lightly. I don't use revive on my sps though for what it's worth. I'm sure it's great dip for lps and zoanthinds but in my experience it was too harsh on sps at dosages strong enough to actually kill flatworms. Bayer can be hit or miss on flatworms in my experience as well. I have had to up the dosage a few time to what I'd consider alarming amounts, before i saw worms actually die. and times I'd often put immobile worms back in some untreated tank water to see if they'd snap out of it, and on occasion they would, scary stuff really.

    However, I am still continuously experimenting with dips on the market as well, and if something better than what I am currently using comes along, I will absolutely use it. So far for flatworms specifically, the primer has proven to be the most effective. It's a potassium salt based dip, and i know there are people out there using potassium salt mixes on their own as dips with similar success. I'm just to naive to mix my own and feel confident using it, but I'm sure it would cost way less lol.
     
  15. HolisticBear

    HolisticBear Valuable Member R2R Supporter Reef Tank 365 Build Thread Contributor Partner Member 2018

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2017
    Messages:
    1,395
    Likes Received:
    2,077
    Location:
    NYC
    The active ingredient in Primer is apparently different than CoralRx? Any idea how the active ingredient compares to Fauna Marin's dip (I rarely see reports on it).

    Thanks for sharing the info on flatworms + Bayer. I had quite a few flatworms in my tank and I dip in Bayer (160ml per gallon) and CoralRx, but apparently they made it thru that. They weren't the awful ones, but it's still interesting. Potentially I could replace CoralRx with Primer.
     
  16. lazylivin

    lazylivin Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2008
    Messages:
    726
    Likes Received:
    265
    Location:
    Ohio
    Regarding liability. Suggesting to someone to use a specific dip and said person unsupervised child comes in contact with the recommend chemical, you would be liable? That is sad but probrably agurable by a predatory legal team. Let’s say for example you recommend to all your customers to dip their corals but didn’t give any detailed procedures on how to protect themselves while doing it. Then customer comes in contact with the coral you shipped and was injured by the coral toxin or a marine bacteria. You may also be liable for that. Silly but that is unfortunately the environment we are in.

    Back on subject
    Although bayer is effective and easy on the coral the milky white color is a deal breaker for me. I guess this milky substance is the residual bayer adds to make it waterproof. I hope someday a company purchases the active ingredient in bayer to private label a coral dip without the added residual.
     
    mdbannister and Rispa like this.
  17. SPS Reefer

    SPS Reefer Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2018
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    14
    ;Yuck:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    I am so glad you went the extra mile Adam ... Battlecorals...worm free!
     
    mdbannister likes this.
  18. BluTang85

    BluTang85 Active Member R2R Supporter Build Thread Contributor

    Joined:
    May 3, 2018
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    477
    Location:
    Michigan
    Very good write up Adam, I currently use revive and have used it for quite some time. I have had great success with it. I wouldn’t mind trying primer. I have heard a lot on Bayer but never tried it
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2018
  19. yellojello

    yellojello Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2010
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    147
    Location:
    San Jose
    To wash off Bayer or dip solution before putting in the following fresh salt water rinsing containers, I like to pour clean water or use a squeeze wash bottle over a disposal container. Otherwise, a little gets into the next rinse baths, although I know it’s super diluted each time, but better to be safe.
     
    Jlentz likes this.
  20. Battlecorals

    Battlecorals Aquaculturist R2R Supporter Gold Sponsor

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    3,903
    Likes Received:
    4,099
    Location:
    Wisconsin

    Its good call. I think the more effectively they are rinsed the better. I honestly never liked the idea of any residual Bayer in my systems at all.
     
Draft saved Draft deleted

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice
Loading...