My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[jeffww]

I think its quite humorous that a “bacteria” product seems so clearly bactericidal.

 

[fermentedhiker]

One more data dump for today...
Since AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of a polyquat, that is well above levels harmful to bacteria, so it's possible we might see some level of bacteria suppression with a high overdose of it. And if vibrant in fact has as much of a similar substance in it, then we might see the same.
The caveat is that they are not generally good sterilizers in hard water (saltwater).



So I went looking for any sort of bacterial suppression effect with Algaefix and Vibrant in high doses in tank water....
I took tank water and added 250mg/L of ground up fish flake + 100mg/L of glucose to grow a bunch of bacteria. I added 2 drops/L of methylene blue. The blue color can be used to indicate bacterial activity, because when the bacteria consume all the O2 in the water, the methylene blue gets reduced and loses its color. (google for more: Methylene Blue Reduction Test)

After 15.8 hrs, the samples were still all fully blue (had not depleted O2 yet).

But by 17.9 hours you could see that the highest levels (1/10) of AlgaeFix and Vibrant had lower or slower bacterial growth than the others, which were already mostly de-colorized.

This effect was very tiny, however and within a half hour the highest concentrations of Algaefix and Vibrant had nearly caught up to the others.

(left to right: AlgaeFix 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


(left to right: Vibrant 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


Takeaways:
1) again, Algaefix and Vibrant are weirdly similar - this time on a rate-of-bacterial growth test.
2) 1/10 dilutions of Algaefix and Vibrant delayed rate of bacterial metabolism in richly fed tank water by a small, but detectable and nearly identical amount. There is nothing in the claimed ingredient list of Vibrant that suggests it should delay bacterial growth.
3) the bacterial suppression effect of even a high amount (1/10th dilution) of the polyquat in Algaefix - and whatever is in Vibrant - is really small in saltwater, less than an hour's worth of bacterial growth.
4) It does't seem impossible to keep some spores etc viable in pure AlgaeFix or Vibrant, but that wasn't tested.
5) Concern about the polyquat in algaefix (and perhaps in vibrant) being a risk to saltwater microbiome seems very small.

Just a random thought. If I remember correctly from the waste away thread, Dr Tim stated that the bottles included a substance that acted as a suppressant of some sort keeping the bacteria in the bottle dormant so that they would stay viable for longer in the bottle. An issue he had with experiments involving doses in small volumes of test samples was that the suppressant would still be in high enough concentration to interfere with the bacteria. It would seem reasonable(a dangerous statement I know) that other bottle bac suppliers do something similar to increase the shelf life of their products as well. Is it possible that such a substance could be responsible for the observed results in your experiment?

Of course that doesn't explain how closely it lines up with the results of the Algaefix samples, but it is an unaccounted for variable and those are always troublesome when attempting to draw useful conclusions.

 

[ScottB]

@taricha @Scott B. @MnFish1

Do you think it’s safe for me to dose vibrant in my tank? I like how it makes my tank crystal clear. I also have a small dino and cyano problem that dino claims to remove. I also saw a BRS video where coralline algae increased after using vibrant (maybe because algae stopped competing).

I already have a bottle at home. I just think I need the “go ahead” before I can use it…because I’m a little scared TBH even though nothing happened when I’ve used it in the past.

I have also used it to good effect, although -- for my tank at least -- it does lower nutrient. So if you're already low, it could push you into a dino outbreak. Keep an eye on nitrates and PO4.

 

[taricha]

Just a random thought. If I remember correctly from the waste away thread, Dr Tim stated that the bottles included a substance that acted as a suppressant of some sort keeping the bacteria in the bottle dormant

Would you believe me if I told you that the preservative (or whatever we want to call it) in waste away is waaay stronger at suppressing bacterial growth than the polyquat in AlgaeFix (and whatever is in vibrant)?

 

[ScottB]

Are you saying Lps and softy keepers are dumber? Lol. Just kidding. I chuckled to myself when I thought this! Btw. I’m purely entertained by this thread following silently!

It has been fascinating to follow that is for sure.

 

[Lasse]

One more data dump for today...
Since AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of a polyquat, that is well above levels harmful to bacteria, so it's possible we might see some level of bacteria suppression with a high overdose of it. And if vibrant in fact has as much of a similar substance in it, then we might see the same.
The caveat is that they are not generally good sterilizers in hard water (saltwater).



So I went looking for any sort of bacterial suppression effect with Algaefix and Vibrant in high doses in tank water....
I took tank water and added 250mg/L of ground up fish flake + 100mg/L of glucose to grow a bunch of bacteria. I added 2 drops/L of methylene blue. The blue color can be used to indicate bacterial activity, because when the bacteria consume all the O2 in the water, the methylene blue gets reduced and loses its color. (google for more: Methylene Blue Reduction Test)

After 15.8 hrs, the samples were still all fully blue (had not depleted O2 yet).

But by 17.9 hours you could see that the highest levels (1/10) of AlgaeFix and Vibrant had lower or slower bacterial growth than the others, which were already mostly de-colorized.

This effect was very tiny, however and within a half hour the highest concentrations of Algaefix and Vibrant had nearly caught up to the others.

(left to right: AlgaeFix 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


(left to right: Vibrant 1/100, 1/30, 1/10)


Takeaways:
1) again, Algaefix and Vibrant are weirdly similar - this time on a rate-of-bacterial growth test.
2) 1/10 dilutions of Algaefix and Vibrant delayed rate of bacterial metabolism in richly fed tank water by a small, but detectable and nearly identical amount. There is nothing in the claimed ingredient list of Vibrant that suggests it should delay bacterial growth.
3) the bacterial suppression effect of even a high amount (1/10th dilution) of the polyquat in Algaefix - and whatever is in Vibrant - is really small in saltwater, less than an hour's worth of bacterial growth.
4) It does't seem impossible to keep some spores etc viable in pure AlgaeFix or Vibrant, but that wasn't tested.
5) Concern about the polyquat in algaefix (and perhaps in vibrant) being a risk to saltwater microbiome seems very small.

I just saw this thread - so excuse me if the question already is asked. Have you test how it affect the nitrification process - ie - test for changes in nitrite concentration?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

I just saw this thread - so excuse me if the question already is asked. Have you test how it affect the nitrification process - ie - test for changes in nitrite concentration?

Sincerely Lasse

Nope. Nothing related to nitrification.

 

[Lasse]

IMO - it should be interesting to do that - because of my experiences - the second step - nitrite oxidation - is the most sensitive microbiological process we have in reefing.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[taricha]

IMO - it should be interesting to do that - because of my experiences - the second step - nitrite oxidation - is the most sensitive microbiological process we have in reefing.

Sincerely Lasse

Oh, I remembered I do have one tiny data point on this.
I used several rounds of Algaefix marine in my system, and sent an aquabiomics test about a month later. The microbiome was quite normal, but specifically two types of Ammonia oxidizers, and 1 type of nitrite oxidizer were found. The proportional abundance of each was above average for the aquabiomics samples.
(that doesn't address whether the polyquat in algaefix temporarily depressed ammonia or nitrite oxidation, but it seems it didn't greatly reduce those populations long-term.)

 

[Lasse]

Interesting of different reasons. But I think 1 month is long enough for them to recover from an event with acute toxicity.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Midrats]

The first time I used this stuff a couple of years ago I didn't like the way my corals reacted so I threw it away. Out of desperation I bought another bottle in an attempt to quell a Valonia infestation. I've had much better luck thus far as I'm only dosing it once per week. I'm only two doses in but after reading this I'm scared to use it anymore, and who wants polyquat in their reef anyway? Thanks to all the scientists in this thread!

 

[taricha]

I wanted to follow up on this....

Since AlgaeFix contains 4.5% of a polyquat, that is well above levels harmful to bacteria, so it's possible we might see some level of bacteria suppression with a high overdose of it. And if vibrant in fact has as much of a similar substance in it, then we might see the same.
The caveat is that they are not generally good sterilizers in hard water (saltwater)....

If Vibrant in fact contains a quat, like algaefix then we could expect it might be bad at suppressing bacterial growth in saltwater, but good at killing/suppressing bacteria in freshwater. (click the above quote for demo that bacterial suppression is very minor in saltwater - half-hour delay out of 18 hour growth time - even at high doses).

So here's a check of how AlgaeFix and Vibrant affect bacterial growth in freshwater.
Water from a pond near my house, added 250mg/L ground fish flake, 100mg/L glucose, and 2 drops/L methylene blue to show when O2 gets depleted by bacterial growth as before.

The controls all grew enough bacteria to deplete O2 by 26 hours.

and all 3 concentrations of algaefix and vibrant still showed some suppression of bacteria at 52 hrs...

Additionally, I checked to see if the strong bacterial activity in the controls could be stopped by the known quat in algaefix and the apparent one in vibrant.

After the 3 controls grew enough bacteria to deplete O2, I opened each one and re-aerated them so they turned blue again. Then added AlgaeFix (1/100) to the 2nd one, and Vibrant (1/100) to the 3rd one - the first one was left as control.

The re-aerated control had depleted O2 again after about 2 hours.

...but the addition of AlgaeFix and Vibrant suppressed the bacterial activity in the cultures, requiring ~25 hours to catch up, and their rates of activity were indistinguishable.

Takeaways
1) The known quat in AlgaeFix and the possible one in Vibrant significantly suppresses bacterial growth in freshwater, but barely any effect is seen in saltwater - this is expected behavior for a quat.
2) The degree of bacterial suppression for the quat in AlgaeFix and the possible one in Vibrant is so similar that their effects on these freshwater cultures are indistinguishable.
3) nothing in the vibrant ingredient list predicts or can explain this quat-like antibacterial activity.

 

[SMSREEF]

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT MY THEORY?

I don’t think it has fluconazole in it.

When I was fighting chrysophyte, fluconazole was one of the things I tried and it did nothing. Chryso was unphased.

Vibrant did work.

Do I think Vibrant has bacteria in the bottle? No (other than contaminants, I doubt it’s sterile).

Do I think the company should disclose the ingredients so we know what we are putting in our tanks and exposing our live animals to? Yes

Will I still use it when I need to even if they don’t? Yes

 

[FEED ME ZOAS]

I wanted to follow up on this....



If Vibrant in fact contains a quat, like algaefix then we could expect it might be bad at suppressing bacterial growth in saltwater, but good at killing/suppressing bacteria in freshwater. (click the above quote for demo that bacterial suppression is very minor in saltwater - half-hour delay out of 18 hour growth time - even at high doses).

So here's a check of how AlgaeFix and Vibrant affect bacterial growth in freshwater.
Water from a pond near my house, added 250mg/L ground fish flake, 100mg/L glucose, and 2 drops/L methylene blue to show when O2 gets depleted by bacterial growth as before.

The controls all grew enough bacteria to deplete O2 by 26 hours.

and all 3 concentrations of algaefix and vibrant still showed some suppression of bacteria at 52 hrs...

Additionally, I checked to see if the strong bacterial activity in the controls could be stopped by the known quat in algaefix and the apparent one in vibrant.

After the 3 controls grew enough bacteria to deplete O2, I opened each one and re-aerated them so they turned blue again. Then added AlgaeFix (1/100) to the 2nd one, and Vibrant (1/100) to the 3rd one - the first one was left as control.

The re-aerated control had depleted O2 again after about 2 hours.

...but the addition of AlgaeFix and Vibrant suppressed the bacterial activity in the cultures, requiring ~25 hours to catch up, and their rates of activity were indistinguishable.

Takeaways
1) The known quat in AlgaeFix and the possible one in Vibrant significantly suppresses bacterial growth in freshwater, but barely any effect is seen in saltwater - this is expected behavior for a quat.
2) The degree of bacterial suppression for the quat in AlgaeFix and the possible one in Vibrant is so similar that their effects on these freshwater cultures are indistinguishable.
3) nothing in the vibrant ingredient list predicts or can explain this quat-like antibacterial activity.

Very interesting that a supposed bacterial product has significant antibacterial properties. I wonder, if vibrant is indeed a bacterial product, could whatever is causing this bacterial suppression serve as a sort of preservative for shelf stability and product longevity?

Thanks for the further testing @taricha. This has been a very interesting thread.

 

[Midrats]

This is such a bummer as I was starting to see results, and today is dose day.

 

[FEED ME ZOAS]

This is such a bummer as I was starting to see results, and today is dose day.

Fwiw I've continued using vibrant. I've already paid for the product, and it seems it's maybe similar to algae fix which many have used. Then again I only have the one tank right now and not much in it just yet so I don't have a hobby ending amount at risk.

 

[ScottB]

I don’t think it has fluconazole in it.

When I was fighting chrysophyte, fluconazole was one of the things I tried and it did nothing. Chryso was unphased.

Vibrant did work.

Do I think Vibrant has bacteria in the bottle? No (other than contaminants, I doubt it’s sterile).

Do I think the company should disclose the ingredients so we know what we are putting in our tanks and exposing our live animals to? Yes

Will I still use it when I need to even if they don’t? Yes

A few posts later, I admit to being wrong, but keep reading. It doesn't have fluc, but it does seem to have something you are not expecting...

I think I also suggest that it DID work for me against chrysophytes (otherwise known as "golden algae").

I just gave you a clue right there. If pressed for time, just keep paging until you start seeing the blue test vials.

 

[Midrats]

Fwiw I've continued using vibrant. I've already paid for the product, and it seems it's maybe similar to algae fix which many have used. Then again I only have the one tank right now and not much in it just yet so I don't have a hobby ending amount at risk.

I just poured into the tank while holding my nose.

 

[jeffww]

I think thats the best conclusion to take away from. At the end of the day its probably safe for most reefs but we shouldn’t pretend its some magic algae eating bacteria.

 

[moz71]

@taricha let’s make money and make our own product and disclose all info and your findings. People will buy it and trust more. Even if you or someone else won’t put in tank!! Just a thought. I will invest! Lol