My speculation: Vibrant has some fluconazole in it...

[jcolliii]

This wont tell you too much here would it? Unless one knew what was in this to compare to tlc?

Well, I suppose not. Unless the compound was exactly the same as the one used in Algaefix.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Well, I suppose not. Unless the compound was exactly the same as the one used in Algaefix.

kjedhal method if maybe their was a way to separate bacterial nitrogen from others(still very crude) Also even nothing to compare algaefix to. It only states "quaternary ammonium" This could be a huge list of things.

 

[taricha]

@taricha have you considered the amino acids reacting with bromophenol blue?

yeah. That was one of the first things @jeffww checked. He looked at 3 different amino acids, including aspartic acid which is a label ingredient in vibrant. none caused the bromophenol blue to shift purple -> blue. see here and here. (He did the test on liquids, not dried residues like I had been doing and testing on liquids may be less responsive.)
I don't remember if I tried aminos - specifically aspartic acid - myself. I tried a bunch of things that gave no response resembling a quat. I'll revisit it and check some aminos against bromophenol blue and also the quat test strips I used.

regarding the spores in Waste Away and other products
"in order to successfully have [heterotroph] bacteria survive long periods of time in a bottle you need to add preservatives to the liquid. The preservatives keep the bacteria in the dormant spore form."

"The bacteria are Bacillus ... Send a sample to AquaBiomics and for $99 you'll have answer."
-DrTim

 

[MnFish1]

yeah. That was one of the first things @jeffww checked. He looked at 3 different amino acids, including aspartic acid which is a label ingredient in vibrant. none caused the bromophenol blue to shift purple -> blue. see here and here. (He did the test on liquids, not dried residues like I had been doing and testing on liquids may be less responsive.)
I don't remember if I tried aminos - specifically aspartic acid - myself. I tried a bunch of things that gave no response resembling a quat. I'll revisit it and check some aminos against bromophenol blue and also the quat test strips I used.

regarding the spores in Waste Away and other products
"in order to successfully have [heterotroph] bacteria survive long periods of time in a bottle you need to add preservatives to the liquid. The preservatives keep the bacteria in the dormant spore form."

"The bacteria are Bacillus ... Send a sample to AquaBiomics and for $99 you'll have answer."
-DrTim

It would be interesting for you to re-test with liquids

 

[DrZoidburg]

Was any of his test done in seawater? He didn't use what might be the amino acid in vibrant? These would react differently than aspartic acid. Was yours, or does this bottle have a salinity?

 

[JCOLE]

I tell you, I've been around reefing for a long time. I've seen a lot of disagreements, good, logical discussions, etc. It never ceases to amaze me how people will demand to know exactly what the recipe of a product is and then, trash the company because they won't give up their Intellectual Property.

Vibrant is for sale as a product with a specific application. No one forces anyone to buy it, it is not a requirement for anyone.

It took care if all of my Bryopsis, regardless of whether it was in the light or not. People cry foul all the time on ChemiClean as well, saying it killed their whole tank. Yet they fail to follow the basic instructions.

Vibrant requires measured dosing in ml. It requires a skimmer OR significant water changes weekly. Preferably both. Same with ChemiClean, most run it with no skimmer and no water changes to export the nutrients that released from the algae, and then cry foul.

In short, use products or don't, it's your choice. But if you can't follow dosing instructions or follow the actual directions of usage, don't trash the company for your lack of procedure.

And as always, who knows that Vibrant killed any corals? If you have that much Bryopsis in an SPS tank, you obviously have far more serious issues that need to be addressed. Anything could have activated and started happening to kill the corals that was already there and going to happen.

If you have been reefing for a long time then you should remember the days of Snake oil? Everything that came out 10 years ago and prior was labeled as snake oil and now every additive that comes out is a miracle cure and has a cult following.

I am not or have ever discredited Vibrant on removing Algae. I had a bubble algae outbreak of plague proportions and nothing would touch it except for Vibrant. Vibrant eradicated the bubble algae within 2 months. However, a week after the bubble algae died then so did 95% of my Acro's. I have been reefing for a while as well and know how to grow dinner plate colonies. I followed the directions that were presented on the bottle, the Vibrant thread on this forum, and also the BRS videos including the interview one with the owner. I ran a skimmer and did water changes before my weekly Vibrant dose.

I know it was my choice to use the product and yes, I can't say that Vibrant 100% caused issues with my corals. However, I did follow the directions and still had a bad issue. I am not the only one either. I said it early on and it still is the main part of my argument here. I feel as so do many others that there is something else inside of Vibrant other than just Bacteria. If there is something else in there then how do we truly know it should be dosed for an extended period of time at the dosing recommendations for an Acropora dominant system? Again, this all goes back to what I have been trying to explain, yet it doesn't feel anyone is getting what I am trying to say.

Does Vibrant remove algae? Absolutely! I don't think anyone is discrediting that fact. The issue here is, what damaging effect could the other substances in Vibrant cause on our systems?

 

[JCOLE]

Well because I have a little experience in the area - for one - 2 the company say they are going to answer the question. It seems to me like you lost a lot of coral and want 'something' - no clue what is it, If they have the same ingredients as algeaefix - the what' - Will you demand that they pay you? (I already said you should vigorously complain - so - now - please - get off my back thanks!

I want nothing in return from the company except for transparency. I did lose a lot of coral and it was over a year ago. Like I said I chalked it up at a loss and moved on. Even if Vibrant was the main cause of my coral deaths then there is no way for me to 100% prove that it did cause the deaths. The company owes me nothing.

Honestly, I forgot about Vibrant a long time ago and didn't look back. That was until I stumbled across this thread and saw Taricha and others' findings. What I did notice was that when @jda chimed in then they were quick to reply back and discredit what he was saying. They were very active on this thread until Taricha and others started showing pretty viable findings from their experiments suggesting @jda was correct. I haven't seen a post from them since. Wonder why that is?....

The company wrote me personally on Tuesday and said they understood what I was saying and were sorry for the loss of my corals. They also said they would explain what we believe to be the "Quat" in the formula to put everyone at ease. I wrote them back and thanked them and acknowledged that would be the best option to clear the air as this has been an issue of concern for a very long time. I never once said they owed me anything and I am not here to make UWC out to be this evil villain. I just think at this point there are questions that should be answered directly from them and not anyone else.

Again, for the last time as I feel I am just beating a dead horse now, and then I will get off your "back". This isn't about me or what happened to my system. This is for any future hobbyists that want to dose this into their tank. I feel Vibrant should be treated with precaution instead of this magical end all cure for algae.

 

[a.t.t.r]

If you have been reefing for a long time then you should remember the days of Snake oil? Everything that came out 10 years ago and prior was labeled as snake oil and now every additive that comes out is a miracle cure and has a cult following.

I am not or have ever discredited Vibrant on removing Algae. I had a bubble algae outbreak of plague proportions and nothing would touch it except for Vibrant. Vibrant eradicated the bubble algae within 2 months. However, a week after the bubble algae died then so did 95% of my Acro's. I have been reefing for a while as well and know how to grow dinner plate colonies. I followed the directions that were presented on the bottle, the Vibrant thread on this forum, and also the BRS videos including the interview one with the owner. I ran a skimmer and did water changes before my weekly Vibrant dose.

I know it was my choice to use the product and yes, I can't say that Vibrant 100% caused issues with my corals. However, I did follow the directions and still had a bad issue. I am not the only one either. I said it early on and it still is the main part of my argument here. I feel as so do many others that there is something else inside of Vibrant other than just Bacteria. If there is something else in there then how do we truly know it should be dosed for an extended period of time at the dosing recommendations for an Acropora dominant system? Again, this all goes back to what I have been trying to explain, yet it doesn't feel anyone is getting what I am trying to say.

Does Vibrant remove algae? Absolutely! I don't think anyone is discrediting that fact. The issue here is, what damaging effect could the other substances in Vibrant cause on our systems?

Remember the EcoAqualizer!?

 

[MnFish1]

I want nothing in return from the company except for transparency. I did lose a lot of coral and it was over a year ago. Like I said I chalked it up at a loss and moved on. Even if Vibrant was the main cause of my coral deaths then there is no way for me to 100% prove that it did cause the deaths. The company owes me nothing.

Honestly, I forgot about Vibrant a long time ago and didn't look back. That was until I stumbled across this thread and saw Taricha and others' findings. What I did notice was that when @jda chimed in then they were quick to reply back and discredit what he was saying. They were very active on this thread until Taricha and others started showing pretty viable findings from their experiments suggesting @jda was correct. I haven't seen a post from them since. Wonder why that is?....

The company wrote me personally on Tuesday and said they understood what I was saying and were sorry for the loss of my corals. They also said they would explain what we believe to be the "Quat" in the formula to put everyone at ease. I wrote them back and thanked them and acknowledged that would be the best option to clear the air as this has been an issue of concern for a very long time. I never once said they owed me anything and I am not here to make UWC out to be this evil villain. I just think at this point there are questions that should be answered directly from them and not anyone else.

Again, for the last time as I feel I am just beating a dead horse now, and then I will get off your "back". This isn't about me or what happened to my system. This is for any future hobbyists that want to dose this into their tank. I feel Vibrant should be treated with precaution instead of this magical end all cure for algae.

No I think you should wait - you might get an explaination

 

[DrZoidburg]

This test may be the smoking gun depending on how one interprets the colors. Notice how vibrant is slightly different. With only speculation of a 1% difference in amount of compound. Do you know why your not seeing a color change as more water is added?

 

[nereefpat]

here's a quick view of what people mean when they say it's clear with an undetectable pellet. Yes - uniformly transparent.

Might have to zoom in to see, but vibrant is unique among hobby bacterial products in that it produces no pellet or condensed material when centrifuged.
Each tube was 10mL of thoroughly shaken product, centrifuged 4000rpm for 10min.

1 - Microbacter7
2 - Waste Away
3 - Bacto Therapy (Fauna Marin)
4 - FritzZyme 460
5 - Pristine (seachem)
6 - Vibrant

In 10mLs, you would see a pellet. There are no cells in it. Or the OD is so low that you can't see it.

 

[jeffww]

I have filtered vibrant through a 0.2um syringe filter. It is surprisingly easy which suggests to me a lack of actual cells in it. The liquid is also a yellowish color not unlike concentrated busan 77/polyqac. Im also in the process of verifying if the material is retained in a 3000 dalton ultrafiltration cartridge since I suspect its a polymer with fairly high mw. This is all in an effort to purify the active ingredient the makers have so kindly spiked with other small molecule organics which makes analysis more challenging (doubt its on purpose though).

 

[taricha]

[for casual readers none of this post is new info. It's just shooting down possible errors more thoroughly.]

I don't remember if I tried aminos - specifically aspartic acid - myself. I tried a bunch of things that gave no response resembling a quat. I'll revisit it and check some aminos against bromophenol blue and also the quat test strips I used.

here's the follow-up...
These are the Quat test strips that I used previously in the post here.


These were each diluted 1/10 with tank water before the strips were used.
left to right
1 - pure tank water
2 - CoralAmino (Brightwell amino acid product)
3 - 1/100 (mass) Aspartic acid
4 - 1/100 (mass) glutamine
5 - vinegar
6 - AlgaeFix
7 - Vibrant

So the strips were not responsive to amino acids (including the label one in vibrant - aspartic acid) or vinegar, but very responsive to the known quat in algaefix and whatever unlabeled ingredient is in vibrant, as seen in the previous post linked above.

I also checked if these fooled the bromophenol blue test I've been using.


1 - pure tank water
2 - CoralAmino (Brightwell amino acid product)
3 - 1/100 (mass) Aspartic acid
4 - 1/100 (mass) glutamine
5 - vinegar
6 - AlgaeFix
7 - Vibrant

Only gives the "quat" response to AlgaeFix and whatever is in Vibrant.

The aspartic acid concentration caused the BPB to shift color in a way similar to low pH conditions, so I pushed the pHs high with NaOH to try to turn that response off and see if it would give the "quat" response.


left to right:
1 - straight 1M NaOH (high pH residues don't cause the purple -> blue shift)
2 - the aspartic acid dilution in tank water tested above (pH elevated with NaOH)
3 - the vibrant dilution in tank water tested above (pH elevated with NaOH)

elevating the pH to stop the undesirable color shift. BPB still does not give the "quat" response to aspartic acid, but does to Vibrant.

 

[DrZoidburg]

I have reason to believe the color changes not representative to any polyquaternium. I feel as if the color would be stronger. Like you see in @jeffww test above. Also note these more stable in higher ph's. You would have more color at more dilution I suspect. Where 1/3000th would be bluer. Nor the same ingredients. If one looks closely there is a noticeable difference. That would be likely more visible in person at 1/1000th. It looks more than a 1% difference in color. At 1% probably couldn't even tell the difference in purple shades. BPB doesn't shift to acid form.. The aspartic acid is changing charges.

 

[taricha]

Was any of his test done in seawater?

Jeffww did pure substances, not saltwater.

He didn't use what might be the amino acid in vibrant? These would react differently than aspartic acid.

see here...

He looked at 3 different amino acids, including aspartic acid which is a label ingredient in vibrant. none caused the bromophenol blue to shift purple -> blue. see here and here.

Was yours, or does this bottle have a salinity?

see here...

then again, who says it's got any salt in it? (Vibrant dries clear and smooth like algaefix leaving a slick spot, not crystals like a drop of saltwater.)

 

[MnFish1]

I might wait for the companies explanation. imho y]the methods are faulty,

 

[moz71]

@taricha Just as a silent watcher of this thread, I just want to say I admire the way you present your findings and experiments ESPECIALLY, as you do not argue ,blame, partake in the banter and attacks of your findings and not to go beyond and say it’s “conclusive”. Just stating what you are doing and reasonable assumptions.
a matter of fact I am using vibrant right now and can use your findings as a source of knowledge that allows me to draw my own conclusions. Anyhow. Thank you. This thread Is entertaining also

 

[taricha]

I have reason to believe the color changes not representative to any polyquaternium. I feel as if the color would be stronger.

the tests are being run against AlgaeFix as well and the color is indistinguishable...

That AlgaeFix showed the response predicted in the paper is exactly as expected - the active ingredient is a known quaternary ammonia compound (read more about the algaefix ingredient here).

algaeFix MSDS here.

 

[DrZoidburg]

Maybe not be reacting like you think. Ph of bpb low like as aspartic acid is. At low ph maybe not see drastic color change with this particular dye. When you go up in ph both have negative charge. There would be no change. The aspartic acid goes from positive to negative. At this point may be you would need other things to get color change. I like the idea above about tlc. I wonder why it is more blue. Maybe the vinegar neutralize some of the sodium? Promotes more color?

 

[DrZoidburg]

Even in those strips has a noticeable difference.

Vibrant dries clear and smooth like algaefix leaving a slick spot, not crystals

Pictures? Do you think a small sample from a bottle with 3.5% suspect substance really leave noticeable crystals?