Need Dinoflagellate ID and Advice (Microscope Capture)

Reefer NYC

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Hi all,

My tank has been absolutely overrun by dinoflagellates. To fight them off, I first did a three day blackout--which helped for a day, before they came back. I just did another three day blackout while following the Dr. Tim's dinoflagellate routine. Things look better, but they are still coming back. I would like to understand more about what I am battling, so I took some pictures with my microscope. If anyone knows what type of dino this is, or how to battle it, I would really appreciate the information.

Thank you,
Njal

Capture 3.PNG Capture.PNG Capture2.PNG
 

Ludders

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The thing with Dinoflagellates is A. there are many different species and B. you need to take a holistic approach and get down to the root cause.

@ScottB might be able to ID for you.

Otherwise start with you phosphate and Nitrate levels.

Also do you have a UV Steriliser? We have found these help.

Often it's not one thing that will resolve your battle, but a multi pronged approach.
 

ScottB

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Pics are inconclusive. If you can zoom in a bit more or better yet, make a video to show movement. Pressed to guess I would say LC amphidinium. Do they move around like a Roomba? Are they primarily in the sand?

Check out the linked videos in this document to see if you can get a match. Knowing which species really helps refine treatment methods and tools. Ultimately the goal is the same: support competition. Dinos are edge competitors. They take over when something has gone wrong (most often starvation) in the biome, killing off competitors.

 
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Reefer NYC

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Pics are inconclusive. If you can zoom in a bit more or better yet, make a video to show movement. Pressed to guess I would say LC amphidinium. Do they move around like a Roomba? Are they primarily in the sand?

Check out the linked videos in this document to see if you can get a match. Knowing which species really helps refine treatment methods and tools. Ultimately the goal is the same: support competition. Dinos are edge competitors. They take over when something has gone wrong (most often starvation) in the biome, killing off competitors.

Thank you very much for the information! I really appreciate the help. I tried to zoom in more, but I don't think my little microscope can handle it. I did record a video (attached), which doesn't seem to show much movement at all. They mostly cover the sand (but the rocks and corals as well) and they turn into dense mats and sometimes small spindles in the light, before dissipating (but not totally disappearing) at night.

The guide is extremely helpful and I believe I am dealing with Prorocentrum. I just installed a UV and I will take your advice on building up competition.
 

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ScottB

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Thank you very much for the information! I really appreciate the help. I tried to zoom in more, but I don't think my little microscope can handle it. I did record a video (attached), which doesn't seem to show much movement at all. They mostly cover the sand (but the rocks and corals as well) and they turn into dense mats and sometimes small spindles in the light, before dissipating (but not totally disappearing) at night.

The guide is extremely helpful and I believe I am dealing with Prorocentrum. I just installed a UV and I will take your advice on building up competition.
Even using the zoom function on your phone can help.

Yes, that guide is awesome. @taricha really did this community a big fav with that document.
 

taricha

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The guide is extremely helpful and I believe I am dealing with Prorocentrum. I just installed a UV and I will take your advice on building up competition
agreed on prorocentrum.
 

lelandmarine

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Her
Pics are inconclusive. If you can zoom in a bit more or better yet, make a video to show movement. Pressed to guess I would say LC amphidinium. Do they move around like a Roomba? Are they primarily in the sand?

Check out the linked videos in this document to see if you can get a match. Knowing which species really helps refine treatment methods and tools. Ultimately the goal is the same: support competition. Dinos are edge competitors. They take over when something has gone wrong (most often starvation) in the biome, killing off competitors.

nice link, wish i had found it earlier
 

ScottB

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Thank you very much for the information! I really appreciate the help. I tried to zoom in more, but I don't think my little microscope can handle it. I did record a video (attached), which doesn't seem to show much movement at all. They mostly cover the sand (but the rocks and corals as well) and they turn into dense mats and sometimes small spindles in the light, before dissipating (but not totally disappearing) at night.

The guide is extremely helpful and I believe I am dealing with Prorocentrum. I just installed a UV and I will take your advice on building up competition.
So, how goes the fight?
 
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Reefer NYC

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So, how goes the fight?
Hi Scott,

I'm so sorry for the delay in responding here, but I didn't want to speak too soon about my success against the dinos. First of all--thank you very much! Your help was absolutely invaluable. I have learned a great deal about my tank in connection with this fight and, while there is still a lot of work to do, I think the ecosystem is on a better track than ever before.

The dinos caused an enormous amount of damage. They covered nearly the entire tank, killing corals (galaxea, favia and leptoseris) and bringing my anemones to the brink of death. My snail and pod populations were devastated. I lost a blood red fire shrimp. My gsp and zoas were closed for a month. For a tank that was just starting to grow, this was a huge set back and it made me question my place in the hobby. Not anymore.

As I looked at my brown, disgusting tank and the destruction of life before me, I found something that gave me hope--small purple flecks of algae (very small) growing on some of the rock. Coraline. I had not yet seen any coraline growth in the tank, but there it was...finally. With this glimmer of hope, I dove back into the resources you provided and took the fight back to the dinos.

The fight started to turn around when I truly realized what reefers mean by creating a balanced ecosystem. I designed my rig to be ultra low nutrient--refugium, tons of marine pure, minimal feedings, lost of live rock, protein skimmer and filter sock). I thought this would help keep algea at bay, but it really just prohibited my corals from taking in nutrients and opened the door for dinos.

Once I realized that I needed to provide nutrients to the tank and foster biodiversity in order to create a balanced and thriving ecosystem, I took some important steps. First, I removed half of the marine pure in the system and reduced the photoperiod on the refugium. Then I bought an automatic feeder to provide a more steady amount of food to the tank and starting dosing phytoplankton daily. I manually removed as many of the dinos as possible by sucking it off the sand and rocks (often blowing it off the rocks and syphoning water thought a filter sock and back into the tank). I did not perform a water change for a few weeks. At this point, my nitrates and phosphates began testing higher. I put the tank into a three day blackout as part of Dr. Tim's dino regimen (blackout + waste away + refresh). After the blackout, I noticed that the dinos did not return as quickly as before.

With the dinos on their heels, I started dosing DinoX and reduced the display tank's photoperiod to 6 hours a day (after awhile I extended it, but made it blue lights only). I religiously dosed DinoX for the maximum period on the label. After that, I performed a water change and dropped in a bag of carbon. By this point, the Dinos were a tenth of their peak strength. I gave the tank a week at full light before repeating the DinoX regimen (this time, only for a week or so). By the end of that second regimen, the dinos were gone.

In place of the dinos I saw new life. Coraline grew more widely. Spirorbid worms covered the overflow and rocks. My corals reopened. My anemones began to show the faintest color--hope that they may still have zooxanthellae. Never would I think I'd be so happy to see green algea all over the tank. Even a few aiptasia (I removed some, but may need a peppermint shrimp). I replenished my clean up crew. I've added my first new corals to the tank since the the original dino outbreak and they seem to be doing well. My original corals are open and growing again--things are looking up.

Again, thank you for your help. My tank is on a great new course and I have a much better understanding of how to care for my ecosystem.

All the best,

TheBurntNjal
 

ScottB

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Hi Scott,

I'm so sorry for the delay in responding here, but I didn't want to speak too soon about my success against the dinos. First of all--thank you very much! Your help was absolutely invaluable. I have learned a great deal about my tank in connection with this fight and, while there is still a lot of work to do, I think the ecosystem is on a better track than ever before.

The dinos caused an enormous amount of damage. They covered nearly the entire tank, killing corals (galaxea, favia and leptoseris) and bringing my anemones to the brink of death. My snail and pod populations were devastated. I lost a blood red fire shrimp. My gsp and zoas were closed for a month. For a tank that was just starting to grow, this was a huge set back and it made me question my place in the hobby. Not anymore.

As I looked at my brown, disgusting tank and the destruction of life before me, I found something that gave me hope--small purple flecks of algae (very small) growing on some of the rock. Coraline. I had not yet seen any coraline growth in the tank, but there it was...finally. With this glimmer of hope, I dove back into the resources you provided and took the fight back to the dinos.

The fight started to turn around when I truly realized what reefers mean by creating a balanced ecosystem. I designed my rig to be ultra low nutrient--refugium, tons of marine pure, minimal feedings, lost of live rock, protein skimmer and filter sock). I thought this would help keep algea at bay, but it really just prohibited my corals from taking in nutrients and opened the door for dinos.

Once I realized that I needed to provide nutrients to the tank and foster biodiversity in order to create a balanced and thriving ecosystem, I took some important steps. First, I removed half of the marine pure in the system and reduced the photoperiod on the refugium. Then I bought an automatic feeder to provide a more steady amount of food to the tank and starting dosing phytoplankton daily. I manually removed as many of the dinos as possible by sucking it off the sand and rocks (often blowing it off the rocks and syphoning water thought a filter sock and back into the tank). I did not perform a water change for a few weeks. At this point, my nitrates and phosphates began testing higher. I put the tank into a three day blackout as part of Dr. Tim's dino regimen (blackout + waste away + refresh). After the blackout, I noticed that the dinos did not return as quickly as before.

With the dinos on their heels, I started dosing DinoX and reduced the display tank's photoperiod to 6 hours a day (after awhile I extended it, but made it blue lights only). I religiously dosed DinoX for the maximum period on the label. After that, I performed a water change and dropped in a bag of carbon. By this point, the Dinos were a tenth of their peak strength. I gave the tank a week at full light before repeating the DinoX regimen (this time, only for a week or so). By the end of that second regimen, the dinos were gone.

In place of the dinos I saw new life. Coraline grew more widely. Spirorbid worms covered the overflow and rocks. My corals reopened. My anemones began to show the faintest color--hope that they may still have zooxanthellae. Never would I think I'd be so happy to see green algea all over the tank. Even a few aiptasia (I removed some, but may need a peppermint shrimp). I replenished my clean up crew. I've added my first new corals to the tank since the the original dino outbreak and they seem to be doing well. My original corals are open and growing again--things are looking up.

Again, thank you for your help. My tank is on a great new course and I have a much better understanding of how to care for my ecosystem.

All the best,

TheBurntNjal
Thanks for the good update; glad you are on a better plane of understanding with your system. I ran ultra low for a few years, somehow avoiding dinos but never enjoying a real robust and active system.

I think most "newer" reefers would be blown away by how much nutrient our MATURE systems can process effectively and still avoid nuisance algae. I dump tablespoons of frozen, sheets of nori, and some pellets every day. Fish & corals love it, and all I have nuisance-wise is green film on the glass.

It does take a long time to reach this level of maturity/stability/diversity. Various setbacks can extend that development period too, ie dinos, Chemiclean, salinity or temperature shocks, starvation, etc.
 

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