Need help treating bacterial infection

[ThRoewer]

@Humblefish and anyone else with experience in treating bacterial infections...

Last Thursday I managed to get 3 Calloplesiops argus. Unfortunately, like the one I got before, they came down with a bacterial infection.
The last one I treated successfully with 4 doses of API Furan 2 so I went the same route with these guys. It seemed to have helped a bit and at a minimum slowed the infection at the fins but their mouths seem to get worse.

On the second day they took live adult brine shrimp, but since then they ignored the foods I offered (live brine shrimp, live Tigriopus, live and frozen Mysis).

2020-10-02 - the day after I got them:



2020-10-04



2020-10-07
Today after 5 doses of API Furan 2



Treatment so far:
2020-10-02: 1. dose Furan
2020-10-03: 2. dose Furan
2020-10-04: Water change, 3. dose Furan
2020-10-05: 4. dose Furan
2020-10-06: Water change, 5. dose Furan
2020-10-07: 6. dose Furan

Other antibiotics I have on hand:
- Cipro forte
- Septra forte
- Amoxicillin
- Neomycin sulfate (Seachem NeoPlex)

Which would be the best treatment from here on?

 

[Zionas]

I’m really not the person to ask, but are they a common occurrence for these fish? I thought they’re supposed to be about as disease resistant as fish can get. Maybe just a bad batch?

 

[fishguy242]

@Jay Hemdal

 

[ThRoewer]

I’m really not the person to ask, but are they a common occurrence for these fish? I thought they’re supposed to be about as disease resistant as fish can get. Maybe just a bad batch?

This is not the regular Marine Betta, Calloplesiops altivelis, but rather the far less common Fine-spotted Marine Betta, Calloplesiops argus. All of those I could find so far had bacterial infections at the beginning. Once over those and settled in they are hardy. I would think, many other fish with such an infection would already be circling the drain.

 

[Zionas]

Yeah and I think they can survive ich and velvet far better than most other fish. I wonder what makes them prone to bacterial infections.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

What I'm seeing are chin rubs from shipping damage. This builds up granulomatous material. I see it almost every time on Rhinopias scorpionfish - I suspect that they get shipped in too small bags, and then spend the whole shipment time rubbing. As you've seen, the issue is that the location of the damage causes the fish to not feed normally. I think the 3 videos show they are going progressively downhill. I presume you're managing water quality? As you likely know, choosing an antibiotic is complete guess work. I would have used Furan myself.

Of the antibiotics you have, I've only used the last two, and Amoxicillin is for oral/injectable use. That leaves the NeoPlex. Here is the issue though: antibiotics can take 3 to 5 days to even slow the infection down, and the infection seems to be speeding up on these fish, so in essence, it has a 5 days head start....even the proper antibiotic may not have time to work now. In that case, I wonder if you shouldn't try to get some Maracyn 1 (Erythromycin) and dose it along with the NeoPlex? This has more gram positive affect, while the neo is more gram negative.

So - did they finally work out the taxonomy of these? Last I heard Calloplesiops argus was being lumped back in with C. altivelis as just being an adult color form from certain regions (but that was about 10 years ago).

Jay

 

[ThRoewer]

What I'm seeing are chin rubs from shipping damage. This builds up granulomatous material. I see it almost every time on Rhinopias scorpionfish - I suspect that they get shipped in too small bags, and then spend the whole shipment time rubbing. As you've seen, the issue is that the location of the damage causes the fish to not feed normally. I think the 3 videos show they are going progressively downhill. I presume you're managing water quality? As you likely know, choosing an antibiotic is complete guess work. I would have used Furan myself.

Of the antibiotics you have, I've only used the last two, and Amoxicillin is for oral/injectable use. That leaves the NeoPlex. Here is the issue though: antibiotics can take 3 to 5 days to even slow the infection down, and the infection seems to be speeding up on these fish, so in essence, it has a 5 days head start....even the proper antibiotic may not have time to work now. In that case, I wonder if you shouldn't try to get some Maracyn 1 (Erythromycin) and dose it along with the NeoPlex? This has more gram positive affect, while the neo is more gram negative.

So - did they finally work out the taxonomy of these? Last I heard Calloplesiops argus was being lumped back in with C. altivelis as just being an adult color form from certain regions (but that was about 10 years ago).

Jay

Can't find Maracyn 1, only Maracyn 2.

As saltwater fish have to drink constantly for osmoregulation, any medication added to the water will be taken orally. So uptake of Amoxicillin shouldn't be an issue if it is otherwise effective.

I'm doing near 100% water changes every other day with water from my broodstock system.
My mistake may have been to leave the algae in the tank as they may carry bacteria that break down the medication before it can be taken up by the fish. This is a known problem with Praxiquantel and Chloroquine but likely also applies to other medications as well.

The debate whether C. argus is just the adult/old form of C. altivelis has been conclusively settled by finding juveniles and small specimens of C. argus. There are not just a color differences between the two species but also clear morphological differences. And from what I have read, they are found at different depths, C argus being the one from greater depths.
At this point there is no longer any doubt that they are two distinct and valid species.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Maracyn 2 won't be as effective against gram positive bacteria like Maracyn 1 would be. My recollection is that it is one of the tetracyclines.

I do understand about marine fish fluid uptake, but Amoxicillin is pretty easily degraded in the environment, so it is best injected or made into food.

Regarding bacterial decomposition of praziquantel, yes - Disney researchers demonstrated that is why it loses potency so rapidly (many people thought its lack of efficacy was due to drug resistant flukes) Chloroquine does not degrade over time unless exposed to ultraviolet light. That's a moot point now since it is no longer available due to COVID.

Yeah - I wondered about the C. argus, they got "lumped" with C. altivelis, but they sure don't have the same phenotype, plus none of my C. altivelis ever got fine spots, even after years.

Jay

 

[ichthyogeek]

I know this works with sharks, but are Calloplesiops too small for force feeding? That way you could get the antibiotics into the fish’ system, in the least invasive way as possible, since they’re not taking food.

The only other thing I can think of is a suppository (vents are too small), or an antibiotic injection (risky, invasive)....

 

[ThRoewer]

Maracyn 2 won't be as effective against gram positive bacteria like Maracyn 1 would be. My recollection is that it is one of the tetracyclines.

I do understand about marine fish fluid uptake, but Amoxicillin is pretty easily degraded in the environment, so it is best injected or made into food.

Regarding bacterial decomposition of praziquantel, yes - Disney researchers demonstrated that is why it loses potency so rapidly (many people thought its lack of efficacy was due to drug resistant flukes) Chloroquine does not degrade over time unless exposed to ultraviolet light. That's a moot point now since it is no longer available due to COVID.

Yeah - I wondered about the C. argus, they got "lumped" with C. altivelis, but they sure don't have the same phenotype, plus none of my C. altivelis ever got fine spots, even after years.

Jay

I checked the online stores but all they have these days is Maracyn 2.

I know that it is sensitive to light but I also remember that there was some research done on Chloroquine that showed that certain marine bacteria degrade it as well. BTW, how is the shelf-life of Choroquine? I still have 2 bottles of Ick-Shield Powder I kept around in case I ever run into Amyloodinium.
BTW, that Chloroquine treats COVID effectively has been debunked...

I actually found a good number of pictures of juvenile C. argus, still sporting some of the white sides all baby Calloplesiops have.

 

[ThRoewer]

I know this works with sharks, but are Calloplesiops too small for force feeding? That way you could get the antibiotics into the fish’ system, in the least invasive way as possible, since they’re not taking food.

The only other thing I can think of is a suppository (vents are too small), or an antibiotic injection (risky, invasive)....

I tried force feeding a Regal Angel that was on hunger strike for 7 weeks and it didn't end too well.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I tried force feeding a Regal Angel that was on hunger strike for 7 weeks and it didn't end too well.

If you have MS-222, you could force-feed these pretty easily - you might also be able to use clove oil. However, I think the root cause of the anorexia needs to be fixed, and handling them is just going to create more wear and tear. If you decide otherwise, here is an excerpt from my upcoming disease book:

The tube-feeding process can be employed to give the fish food energy during the time it is anorexic. In some cases, this gives the aquarist enough time to determine a permanent solution. This process uses simple equipment—a syringe and a flexible plastic tube. Feline urinary catheters or avian tracheal tubes can be used for small fishes. Larger fishes can be fed using standard airline tubing attached to a large syringe. A Luer-lock syringe will hold the feeding tube more securely to the syringe body. Placing the tube is easier if you first bevel the end of it. The tube should have marks on it at regular intervals so you can more easily judge the depth of insertion.

The basic food recipe is to create a liquid that will easily pass through the feeding syringe and tube but is thick enough to carry a high amount of calories to the animal’s digestive tract with the least amount of water. It is best to prepare this slurry in a blender, using components of the fish’s normal diet.

The amount of food administered at one feeding is generally 2 to 4% of the animal’s body weight, just enough food to cause a slight distension of the animal’s belly. In most cases, the use of an anesthetic, such as MS-222, is required to sedate the fish so the tube can be inserted. Holding the fish on its back, gently insert the tube into its mouth and try to locate the esophagus. If you are too far to one side or the other, the tube will miss and emerge from under one of the gill covers. Once in place, gentle pressure on the syringe plunger will move the liquid food into the fish’s stomach. Once fed, the tube is gently withdrawn and the fish is moved to a recovery tank.

Spontaneous regurgitation is the most commonly seen problem, though there are also reports of people accidentally rupturing the fish’s digestive tract. Like any medical procedure, there are subtle techniques for this process that need to be learned through practice—so please do not expect to read this basic introduction and suddenly be proficient at tube-feeding fish.

Force-feeding is a technique that can be employed on larger carnivorous fishes. A sedated fish is held on its back while its mouth is opened, and a food item of appropriate size for the animal is then placed in the back of the animal’s throat. A finger or semi-rigid tube is then used to gently push the food item into the stomach. In some species, such as anglerfish and eels, there are back-curved vomerine teeth in the throat that will actually grasp the food item and keep the fish from voluntarily regurgitating it.

Be cautious in directly handling a fish during either of these two techniques, as some have very sharp teeth and, of course, some fish have venomous spines.

The following case histories will help describe some common scenarios where tube feeding has been used, showing cases that did and did not have a successful outcome.

Pinnatus batfish: Perhaps the first time this species of fish had ever been tube fed, this case was unique enough to be written up in an aquarium magazine (Hemdal 1985, 1997). In this instance, the animal eventually perished due to secondary infection apparently caused by handling during the feeding procedure. Still, the animal was kept alive long enough to actually show some growth derived solely on the food energy it was gaining by being tube fed, and it did eventually begin to feed a bit on its own.


Pacu, Colossoma macropomum: One specimen was reported to have stopped feeding for approximately four months at a major public aquarium. There was no discernible cause for this. After 12 days of daily tube-feeding, it began to feed on its own again and did not show any further signs of anorexia. Likely, an unidentified environmental factor caused this fish to suddenly stop feeding. In a similar case, a Moorish idol, Zanclus canescens had adapted well to captivity when it suddenly stopped eating. A bulge in its posterior abdomen indicated that perhaps the fish had a blockage in its digestive tract. Within a week, the swelling disappeared and the fish resumed normal feeding.

Butterfly ray: As an aquarist for a major public aquarium, I had ordered one of these fish from a collector. Upon its arrival, my curator commented, “Too bad you didn’t ask me before ordering this fish – they always starve to death in captivity”. Wanting to prove that I didn’t make a mistake in ordering the fish, I began a three times per week tube feeding regimen for it. The animal actually began to grow as I kept up the procedure for two months. Ultimately, I became too comfortable with the procedure, and I was careless one time and inadvertently ruptured the animal’s stomach by inserting the feeding tube too far and it subsequently died of an infection.

Walking batfish: A group of these fish arrived from a collector and soon began feeding well on live mysids and brine shrimp. Previous experience with these fish told us that they are often severely infected with internal worm parasites. Our most common means of feeding anti-helminthics (de-wormers) was via medication added to gelatin food. As these fish wouldn’t eat that food, they were force fed a liquid food with an appropriate amount of Fenbendazole (Panacur) added. The next day, all the fish were seen expelling many dead worms from their vents and went on to be healthy aquarium inhabitants.

Garden eels: Apparently, due frequently being collected with chemicals, these fish often refuse to feed in captivity. In some cases, tube feeding them for a few weeks will keep them alive long enough that they will begin feeding on their own. The primary problem with tube feeding these fish is that you must use MS-222 to anesthetize the fish each in order to get it out of its sand burrow. Eels that are too weak to create a burrow generally do not survive no matter what you do for them.

Talma butterflyfish: This case was interesting in that the animal did not feed when it was first acquired, but soon began feeding on its own once it had been tube fed a couple of times. It then lived problem free for almost a year, and then suddenly for no apparent reason, stopped feeding. It was tube fed three times a week for two months, but never began feeding on its own again and was eventually euthanized for humane reasons.

Weedy scorpionfish: This animal had refused all food for 6 weeks after its arrival. After tube feeding it once it began feeding on live fish the next day and was soon converted over to sliced seafoods. This case was special in that the species is venomous so great care had to be taken during the procedure so that nobody got stung. For safety of the aquarist, the use of MS-222 anesthetic would be mandatory in cases like this.

Weedy seadragon: A very rare and valuable fish, this animal had been in captivity for two years when it suddenly stopped feeding on live mysid shrimp (the only food it would accept). It refused food for a month while it was treated with various anti-protozoan medications. It began feeding on its own for two days, and then stopped feeding again. This time it was suspected that the animal had developed a secondary bacterial infection. It was tube fed using a very tiny catheter during the four weeks it was given antibiotic injections. No anesthetic was needed, but inserting the tube through the animal’s long narrow snout proved very difficult. About a week after the last injection, the seadragon began feeding on its own and did well after that.

Appetite stimulants are frequently suggested to help get a fish feeding normally. Vitamin B12 and garlic extract are two commonly touted remedies. These rarely, if ever work as hoped. If the fish is being offered an inappropriate food (brine shrimp to a coral-feeding butterflyfish for example) stimulating the fish’s appetite isn’t going to help. Likewise, if a fish is anorexic due to an environmental issue or disease process, those issues must be remedied first.


Jay

 

[flampton]

I'll be the first to say I am not a fish doctor. However and excuse me @Jay Hemdal if you see something you don't like.

Both cipro, septra and the neomycin have activity against Gram-positives, I mean they all are broad spectrums. If you're in a true emergency then you should start treatment with at least one of these compounds. I mean you're probably not going to find erythromycin in time anyways. As for the amox, the half life is extremely short so yeah you'd have to feed the fish directly, so I would go with the other three.

I'll let Jay clean this up and his thoughts on the matter...

 

[ThRoewer]

I'll be the first to say I am not a fish doctor. However and excuse me @Jay Hemdal if you see something you don't like.

Both cipro, septra and the neomycin have activity against Gram-positives, I mean they all are broad spectrums. If you're in a true emergency then you should start treatment with at least one of these compounds. I mean you're probably not going to find erythromycin in time anyways. As for the amox, the half life is extremely short so yeah you'd have to feed the fish directly, so I would go with the other three.

I'll let Jay clean this up and his thoughts on the matter...

I have Cipro to treat sick anemones. Never tried it on fish.
I saved a few Amphiprion with Septra and that's the main reason why I have it. Though, when I treated the other C. argus with Septra it didn't seem to do too much. (BTW, Septra seems to be detrimental if not outright toxic to anemones so I would advise against using it for those.)
I probably try the neomycin first.

 

[flampton]

I have Cipro to treat sick anemones. Never tried it on fish.
I saved a few Amphiprion with Septra and that's the main reason why I have it. Though, when I treated the other C. argus with Septra it didn't seem to do too much. (BTW, Septra seems to be detrimental if not outright toxic to anemones so I would advise against using it for those.)
I probably try the neomycin first.

Understand but be ready with the others because neomycin is the weakest of the three towards Gram-positives

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I'll be the first to say I am not a fish doctor. However and excuse me @Jay Hemdal if you see something you don't like.

Both cipro, septra and the neomycin have activity against Gram-positives, I mean they all are broad spectrums. If you're in a true emergency then you should start treatment with at least one of these compounds. I mean you're probably not going to find erythromycin in time anyways. As for the amox, the half life is extremely short so yeah you'd have to feed the fish directly, so I would go with the other three.

I'll let Jay clean this up and his thoughts on the matter...

No worries, I've never used cipro as a bath in water. I didn't recognize the name Septra, but I see now that it is what I know as trimethoprim/sulfa. I used to use that quite a bit in the past, but I can't get it commercially now. I like Neomycin since it can be dosed in water and is effective against Pseudomonas. There is some risk to the biofilter when using it, so you need to monitor for ammonia.

Jay

 

[ThRoewer]

Understand but be ready with the others because neomycin is the weakest of the three towards Gram-positives

Which would you go with?

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Which would you go with?

I think we all went down a rabbit hole here - I just threw out the erythromycin to cover all bases, but the reality is that external bacterial infections of fish that start from injuries are almost always gram negative...

Jay

 

[flampton]

As Jay noted it's a probable Gram-negative I would go with the one you're most comfortable using.

 

[ThRoewer]

I stick with the neomycin for now as it has the least negative side effects.