Need SW advice for FW!

[Dvt81]

Hi guys, ill cut this short.

I have african cichlids, im upgrading to almost 500g in February. I have just bought myself some containers that will allow me to do my own reactors and here is the question... Im planning in running 4 reactor, 1 bio pellet, 1 di nitrate, 1 carbon and 1 phosgard/seagel by seachem or GFO.. If im right you guys need a skimmer AFTER these reactors? If so... Would i need a skimmer also and if so why would i need to buy one?

There isnt alot online about using SW methods for FW and the reason i want to cut back on maintenance is that its 1 less worry when i go on holiday.

My new tank will be 380g display and 110g sump

Any help and advice would be great.

Many thanks

 

[Sailingeric]

I could be wrong but I have read that skimmers don't work so well with fresh water since the salt in the water is what helps it bubble up enough to collect the proteins to skimmer off.

 

[Dvt81]

I could be wrong but I have read that skimmers don't work so well with fresh water since the salt in the water is what helps it bubble up enough to collect the proteins to skimmer off.

Yes but why must i use a skimmer if i use the reactors? Is this a must?

I could be wrong but I have read that skimmers don't work so well with fresh water since the salt in the water is what helps it bubble up enough to collect the proteins to skimmer off.

 

[ReeferReefer]

A skimmer is needed if you are going to run a bio pellet reactor. If it was me, I would just run two reactors, 1 carbon, 1 gfo (if phospates are an issue, test first).

The use of a sump and filter socks will translate well though. I think that older sump set ups that drip over bio balls work great for freshwater.

Algae Turf Scrubbers are a popular thing in the hobby right now and could work well in freshwater. You could even DIY it.

 

[ilyad]

Skimmers do not work on fresh water. The salt in the saltwater allows the skimmer to create bubbles which then break and skim excess nutrients. Fresh water just does not bubble due to different surface tension in the water. So no way to integrate skimmers into FW as far as I know.

That also means you shouldn't use bio pellets because of the way it operates. Bio pellets provide a carbon source for bacteria to grow which then uptakes nutrients. Once those nutrients are absorbed, the skimmer allows the bacteria and its waste to be captured. Adding bio pellets without an ability to pull the extra biomass from the bacteria may crash your tank because too much bacteria can deplete oxygen levels in the tank as well as create spikes in amonia and whatnot.

Carbon, Phosphate remover, and bio surface area are all good though, if needed. FW fish tend to have much higher tolerances for nitrates and phosphates in comparison to more sensitive corals. Typically 25-50% weekly or bi-weekly water changes on FW systems should be plenty good. If you do want to reduce water change frequency, I would test phosphates and nitrates and use carbon, rowaphos, and bio blocks to achieve that. Bio blocks as opposed to pellets merely provide extra surface area where beneficial bacteria can grow.

I have no idea if algea turf scrubbers would work for FW, since I havent really seen much of that. But I would imagine it can work so long as you can find the right set up.

 

[Dvt81]

So remove the bio pellets, double up on seachem di nitrate? These will be on a separate pump with the recommended gph being under 50, carbon and a gfo.

Im assuming removing as much rubbish from the water is beneficial regardless if its SW or FW?

Regarding the diy algae scrubber... Will this make a massive difference with nitrates?

 

[Dvt81]

A skimmer is needed if you are going to run a bio pellet reactor. If it was me, I would just run two reactors, 1 carbon, 1 gfo (if phospates are an issue, test first).

The use of a sump and filter socks will translate well though. I think that older sump set ups that drip over bio balls work great for freshwater.

Algae Turf Scrubbers are a popular thing in the hobby right now and could work well in freshwater. You could even DIY it.

Ive designed my sump to run out the edge of the sump then hittinv what would be a refugium but im not 100% sure if im better doing that or doing a algae scrubber.. Cant source these in the uk yet.

 

[ilyad]

I haven’t used de-nitrate itself. So I can’t comment on its efficiency and overall performance.

Personally I would start with MarinePure blocks, carbon, and RowaPhos. Then see how the nitrates and phosphates sit at your preferred water change frequency. Then, if needed, I would add other things.

Algae in general is a great way to absorb nitrates. I’m not sure how feasible it is to build a scrubber for freshwater, as I’ve never looked into it. But I would imagine if it’s doable, it’s a great way to reduce nitrates even further.

You also don’t need to buy a scrubber. Look up how to DIY one. A large enough fuge would have the same results. The scrubber is instead of a fuge, and often can take less room for same result.

 

[Dvt81]

I haven’t used de-nitrate itself. So I can’t comment on its efficiency and overall performance.

Personally I would start with MarinePure blocks, carbon, and RowaPhos. Then see how the nitrates and phosphates sit at your preferred water change frequency. Then, if needed, I would add other things.

Algae in general is a great way to absorb nitrates. I’m not sure how feasible it is to build a scrubber for freshwater, as I’ve never looked into it. But I would imagine if it’s doable, it’s a great way to reduce nitrates even further.

You also don’t need to buy a scrubber. Look up how to DIY one. A large enough fuge would have the same results. The scrubber is instead of a fuge, and often can take less room for same result.

Ill look into the marine blocks.
I heavily over stock my tank and my ammonoa and nitrite are both at zero but nitrate is making me do 3 water changes a week to cheap them nice and low not even for the fish themselves but for me to make sure they are under 15ppm, i like being low

My ideal goal would be to get a sump that covers all my needs and i need to do water change once or twice a month etc. I know it can be done and it'll be trial and error but hence why ive asked you guys on here. The SW crew seem to be on a Totally diff level to us mortals in the FW game!

Ive seen some KOI protein skimmers made especially for the FW side of it.. Hopefully someone has some knowledge of these.

 

[ilyad]

So the reason you've seen some FW skimmers work on Koi ponds is because they are often outdoors and overstocked. If enough impurities are found in the water, the skimmer will create foam and skimmate as a result. That being said once that is pulled out, the skimmer becomes function-less again. However, if you do heavily overstock your tanks, it is possible that the skimmer will actually pull organics out of your tank. But, at the end of the day, it will only do so much and only in circumstances when you are very overstocked, and as a result it really isnt a great return on investment. Now if you had a skimmer already, there is no harm in sticking that sucker into the sump... It'll also help oxygenate the water and often will help with some of the biofilm buildup that often happens in FW tanks.

 

[beaslbob]

I use a natural, balanced planted method. Dubbed the beaslbob method on one forum. LOL

Basically I use 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" a red baked clay called pro choice select for a substrate. the last could be just some gravel if select is not available. I add a 1" layer, fill that layer with water then add the next.

I then add the plants. anacharis, swords, vals, some small potted for plants.

Then fill the tank with water poured over a dish.

(the layers trap the floaties and the tank is clear right from the start.)

I then wait a week. (plants getting in charge)

I then add a single male platy and don't add food for a week.

I then add 2 female platies and start feeding a single flake per day.

no filter, no mechanical circulation, no water changes. just replace evaporative losses.

In 6 months I have a tank full of platies that has a more or less stable population for the next 10 years or so.

If the tank clouds up I kill the lights until it clears.

Obviously you can do the same for other fish but that should give you an idea.

Which is to use the plants to establish a balance stable environment for the fish.

my .02

 

[beaslbob]

Hi guys, ill cut this short.

I have african cichlids, im upgrading to almost 500g in February. I have just bought myself some containers that will allow me to do my own reactors and here is the question... Im planning
...

Sure the cichlids will attack the plants but a simple in tank refugium from egg crate will separate the fish from the plants. Make the back of the tank a planted refugium with the fish in the front.

my .02

 

[Dvt81]

I use a natural, balanced planted method. Dubbed the beaslbob method on one forum. LOL

Basically I use 1" peat moss, 1" play sand, 1" a red baked clay called pro choice select for a substrate. the last could be just some gravel if select is not available. I add a 1" layer, fill that layer with water then add the next.

I then add the plants. anacharis, swords, vals, some small potted for plants.

Then fill the tank with water poured over a dish.

(the layers trap the floaties and the tank is clear right from the start.)

I then wait a week. (plants getting in charge)

I then add a single male platy and don't add food for a week.

I then add 2 female platies and start feeding a single flake per day.

no filter, no mechanical circulation, no water changes. just replace evaporative losses.

In 6 months I have a tank full of platies that has a more or less stable population for the next 10 years or so.

If the tank clouds up I kill the lights until it clears.

Obviously you can do the same for other fish but that should give you an idea.

Which is to use the plants to establish a balance stable environment for the fish.

my .02

This sounds great and very well thought out... But ive got about 90 peacocks crying out for a new playpark some of them are calling me a rogue landlord already

 

[beaslbob]

This sounds great and very well thought out... But ive got about 90 peacocks crying out for a new playpark some of them are calling me a rogue landlord already

Understand.

Hope you have the best tank ever.

 

[Dvt81]

Sure the cichlids will attack the plants but a simple in tank refugium from egg crate will separate the fish from the plants. Make the back of the tank a planted refugium with the fish in the front.

my .02

Only my tank is finalised.. The sump isnt... I can effectively have 2 or 3 sumps under the tank... Nothing on filtration is 100% nailed down.

Im after ideas.

I like the fact that a skimmer would posdibly work if my tank is over stocked... This is going to be my goal anyway. Regarding a skimmer for a 500 gallon... Does it need to for a 500g or can i go for a lower one?

 

[Dvt81]

Understand.

Hope you have the best tank ever.

Im in a few cichlid forums and its like trying to pull teeth from them. You guys in here are superb. Great ideas.

My tank manufacturer is gonna hate the phone call He's gonna get in the morning haha

 

[beaslbob]

Only my tank is finalised.. The sump isnt... I can effectively have 2 or 3 sumps under the tank... Nothing on filtration is 100% nailed down.

Im after ideas.

I like the fact that a skimmer would posdibly work if my tank is over stocked... This is going to be my goal anyway. Regarding a skimmer for a 500 gallon... Does it need to for a 500g or can i go for a lower one?

IMHO your sumps could just be simple planted aquarium using the "beaslbob" method.

The idea is to get fast growing plants taking care of the bioload just like chaeto refugiums. Or even an algae turf scrubber. More fish means faster growing algae/plants. And with sump/refugium can have a much higher density of plants/alage than the display so it does not have to be as large as the tank.

my .02

 

[beaslbob]

I've seen some planted tank that are a back wall of moss. I presume the cichlids would love that.

 

[Dvt81]

I've seen some planted tank that are a back wall of moss. I presume the cichlids would love that.

How many gallons for a planted tank to act as a ref if the display tank is 380g?

Can i have a skimmer AND a ref?!?!

 

[beaslbob]

How many gallons for a planted tank to act as a ref if the display tank is 380g?

Can i have a skimmer AND a ref?!?!

SWAG (scientific wild a** guess) about 1/3-1/4. 90g or 100g should be more than enough. "Gut feel" is that 1/3 to 1/4 of the display in planted tank is plants.

A back wall of a moss that may be enough. FWIW I had a 55g marine where I just crammed in 1/4" sq egg crate 3" in front of the back glass. and added 2 2tube shoplights behind pointing forward. Chaeto and caulerpa took off there, nitrates dropped to 0 in three weeks and my two tangs (yellow and a "dory") were constantly grazing on the macros that poked through and wound up being 4-5" for 5 years. Tank ran for 6-7 years with no water changes.

Yes you can have a skimmer and refugium. I recommend against it because the plants will consume ammonia first then nitrates, plus phosphates, and carbon dioxide while returning oxygen. And FWIW my planted tanks have always had a pH of 8.2+ with the api high range ph kit. Yet soft water fish like neon tetras thrive for years.

my .02