Neonitro from Brightwell aquatics, anyone used?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

BRS stated that it was more than just nitrate but the bottle just states "proprietary nitrogen salts", to me that seemed to suggest that there was more than potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate. Maybe I'm mistaken or missed a piece of the puzzle, but that on the bottle in conjunction with how BRS explained it made me think this was claiming to be more.

My interpretation of that has been sodium or potassium or calcium nitrate (maybe other nitrate salts), not different nitrogen forms, but I cannot say if it is true or not. Brightwell has a tendency to make confusing and incorrect claims, so I wouldn't put much emphasis on it.

I know Seachem claims to also use urea in Flourish Nitrogen, but urea isn't a "nitrogen salt" of any type.

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

My interpretation of that has been sodium or potassium or calcium nitrate (maybe other nitrate salts), not different nitrogen forms, but I cannot say if it is true or not. Brightwell has a tendency to make confusing and incorrect claims, so I wouldn't put much emphasis on it.

I know Seachem claims to also use urea in Flourish Nitrogen, but urea isn't a "nitrogen salt" of any type.

Very interesting, yes I feel confused. Thank you for the information! I wonder if Seachem uses urea as the nitrogen source for their normal Flourish supplement which I use sparingly, but the nitrogen content is only listed at 0.7% which seems like a drop in the bucket, seems like a better micronutrient supplement. But the 1ppm Cu content does bother me a little even though natural seawater is reported at 0.9ppm from what I understand, so I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Very interesting, yes I feel confused. Thank you for the information! I wonder if Seachem uses urea as the nitrogen source for their normal Flourish supplement which I use sparingly, but the nitrogen content is only listed at 0.7% which seems like a drop in the bucket, seems like a better micronutrient supplement. But the 1ppm Cu content does bother me a little even though natural seawater is reported at 0.9ppm from what I understand, so I'm not sure if I'm just being paranoid.

NOOOOOOO.

NSW is not 0.9 ppm copper. It is WAY, WAY lower.

Do not use a copper containing nitrogen supplement.

Seachem Fluorish nitrogen seems to contains only nitrate and urea, about 1:1.

Seachem - Flourish Nitrogen

www.seachem.com

"Because one-half of the nitrogen in Flourish Nitrogen™ is from nitrate you can get a reasonable estimate of nitrogen levels by doubling a nitrate reading."

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

NOOOOOOO.

NSW is not 0.9 ppm copper. It is WAY, WAY lower.

Do not use a copper containing nitrogen supplement.

Seachem Fluorish nitrogen seems to contains only nitrate and urea, about 1:1.

Seachem - Flourish Nitrogen

www.seachem.com

"Because one-half of the nitrogen in Flourish Nitrogen™ is from nitrate you can get a reasonable estimate of nitrogen levels by doubling a nitrate reading."

Thanks a ton, I feel crazy, it's been so long I don't even know where I saw that number!

 

[MikeYasin]

what is the food grade equivalent of neonitro?

Shane - I use this

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

Ok so to follow up Stanford University shows .09ppm Copper concentration in natural seawater. I was looking at Flourish and it shows a concentration of 0.0001% per 1g so that's where I got the numbers.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Ok so to follow up Stanford University shows .09ppm Copper concentration in natural seawater. I was looking at Flourish and it shows a concentration of 0.0001% per 1g so that's where I got the numbers.

Sadly, that old and disused web page is incorrect, though people keep posting it here because some stupid google AI likes it. It is seemingly no longer supported by the Prof there and cannot be accessed from their site (that I could find). I suspect it is a student project run amok.

Copper in NSW is far, far lower. Reliable sources give a value more like 0.00038 ppm (0.38 ppb).

A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater

Marineland Aquatic Research Laboratory, Moorpark, California 93021. The goal of this series of papers is to contribute some real data to the discussion of natural seawater, synthetic sea salt and trace elements. I don't contend that these papers offer the definitive answer. On the contrary, I...

reefs.com

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

Sadly, that old and disused web page is incorrect, though people keep posting it here because some stupid google AI likes it. It is seemingly no longer supported by the Prof there and cannot be accessed from their site (that I could find). I suspect it is a student project run amok.

Copper in NSW is far, far lower. Reliable sources give a value more like 0.00038 ppm (0.38 ppb).

A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater

Marineland Aquatic Research Laboratory, Moorpark, California 93021. The goal of this series of papers is to contribute some real data to the discussion of natural seawater, synthetic sea salt and trace elements. I don't contend that these papers offer the definitive answer. On the contrary, I...

reefs.com

Thank you so much! I should always dig deeper, victim of convenience...another feel dumb moment.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Ok so to follow up Stanford University shows .09ppm Copper concentration in natural seawater. I was looking at Flourish and it shows a concentration of 0.0001% per 1g so that's where I got the numbers.

Its likely that macro algae and even coral benefit from small amounts of copper, so a fertilizer that contains copper may not be harmful depending on the concentration and rate of uptake by macroalgae. I started using a general purpose plant fertilizer with NPK of 24-6-16, iron, copper and traces with a macro only tank and have seen some impressive results in just a few weeks time. Shaving brushes, mermaid fans and Halimeda all showing fast new growth and even offsets are popping up already. Again in just a few weeks. So far the pods and snails are fine, but have not measured copper levels, which would be a good idea. I may continue the experiment and start measuring copper levels at some point.

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

Its likely that macro algae and even coral benefit from small amounts of copper, so a fertilizer that contains copper may not be harmful depending on the concentration and rate of uptake by macroalgae. I started using a general purpose plant fertilizer with NPK of 24-6-16, iron, copper and traces with a macro only tank and have seen some impressive results in just a few weeks time. Shaving brushes, mermaid fans and Halimeda all showing fast new growth and even offsets are popping up already. Again in just a few weeks. So far the pods and snails are fine, but have not measured copper levels, which would be a good idea. I may continue the experiment and start measuring copper levels at some point.

I would love to see this play out if you start a thread let me know and I'll follow along for sure. I feel like there is still little information about an effective dosing schedule for macroalgae growth. For instance why is my caulerpa prolifera so skinny, I used to be able to grow super wide leaves.

 

[ClownWrangler]

It matters, but either may be ok. I’d prefer sodium and dose potassium if and when you need it, but most folks won’t get potassium too high, especially if you do water changes.

This is why it matters and this is what I don't like about the "proprietary blend" When a system is managed properly, water changes are rarely required, but its hard to manage a system properly when you have no idea how much potassium you are adding (from potassium nitrate) which Brightwell does not disclose. I'm not saying this is a bad product. Its just not for everyone, especially those who operate with tight control of parameters to minimize water changes. Plus, these nitrogen in a bottle products are like bottled water in that the contents are only actually worth a few cents.

 

[ClownWrangler]

I would love to see this play out if you start a thread let me know and I'll follow along for sure. I feel like there is still little information about an effective dosing schedule for macroalgae growth. For instance why is my caulerpa prolifera so skinny, I used to be able to grow super wide leaves.

I will put something together when I have more time. I should also add that you need to know your chemistry and have good measurement skills when using dry nutrients. For example I had to do the math and dilute 10g of fertilizer in 1L of water, then take that solution and add only 10ml of that solution to a 5 gallon tank to raise nitrates by 5ppm

 

[Tundra Cuttle]

I will put something together when I have more time. I should also add that you need to know your chemistry and have good measurement skills when using dry nutrients. For example I had to do the math and dilute 10g of fertilizer in 1L of water, then take that solution and add only 10ml of that solution to a 5 gallon tank to raise nitrates by 5ppm

Yup love that practical sort of math

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thank you so much! I should always dig deeper, victim of convenience...another feel dumb moment.

I wrote the the guy listed as responsible for the later generation pages of the same web site, and here's what he wrote back:

" That website was retired some time ago and should not even be accessible (first posted in 1995). The 'values' came from an old edition of the CRC."

"
the concentration of Cu in Monterey Bay matches your value of 0.0003 ppm and I have corrected the page I could: https://seaurchineducation.stanford.edu/mineral

still can't do anything about the old page which should not even be visible.

likely, given the time these values were recorded, there are a lot more errors on this page."

 

[jgsolo32]

I do. It's worked well. I originally took it slow and increased nitrates by .05ppm till I reached my target nitrate.

did you stop dosing once you've reached your target or did you decrease dosage over time? thx

 

[ClownWrangler]

I have used NeoNitro for over a year now. My understanding is that you need a good bacteria source (Microbacter) to bind with the Nitrate to make it a positive source for corals. In addition, keep an eye on potassium levels as NeoNitro contains potassium.

I expressed this same concern as I was irritated that they don't disclose the NPK like most most companies to, however I then found this analysis of the dry content of macro algae that shows more potassium content than nitrogen. Granted, this is not Chaeto. If anyone has the profile for chaeto, please share.

Gracilaria Parvispora:

Nitrogen. 2.6 %
Phosphorous 0.08%
Potassium. 13.5%
Calcium. 0.55%
Magnesium. 1.16%
Sulfur. 4.80%
Zinc. 139 ppm
Iron. 107 ppm
Manganese. 20 ppm
Cooper. 7 ppm

Source: Subsea

That being said, It stands to reason that potassium nitrate as a nitrogen source should be a better option than sodium nitrate for certain macro algaes unless there is another significant source of potassium we are not accounting for. Also, If you do have high potassium levels for some reason, perhaps Gracilaria is a better option than Chaeto.

I was using a general purpose fertilizer with an NPK of 20-4-16 for a month or so in a mixed macro tank. I dosed to 40ppm nitrate once per weak. At the end of each week the nitrates and phosphates were both unreadable (near zero). The caulepa had growth spurts, but turned white when nitrates dropped too low. All the red algaes seem to tolerate swings better. I never measured potassium levels. I will not do this again as I found going to zero makes caulerpa go sexual. I am now dosing daily with NeoNitro and NeoPhos and Chaeto grow. When I run out of NeoNitro, I will switch to potassium nitrate. I will also start testing for potassium if it can be done economically.

Interestingly, I didn't realize I was dosing toxic levels of copper as well (0.05% Chelated from fertilizer), but the macro must have been absorbing it as none of the inverts suffered. I would not recommend this though now that I know better.

Also, that whole microbactor thing looks like snake oil to me. An established tank should already have these self sustaining biological processes.

 

[ClownWrangler]

Sadly, that old and disused web page is incorrect, though people keep posting it here because some stupid google AI likes it. It is seemingly no longer supported by the Prof there and cannot be accessed from their site (that I could find). I suspect it is a student project run amok.

Copper in NSW is far, far lower. Reliable sources give a value more like 0.00038 ppm (0.38 ppb).

A Chemical Analysis of Select Trace Elements in Synthetic Sea Salts and Natural Seawater

Marineland Aquatic Research Laboratory, Moorpark, California 93021. The goal of this series of papers is to contribute some real data to the discussion of natural seawater, synthetic sea salt and trace elements. I don't contend that these papers offer the definitive answer. On the contrary, I...

reefs.com

That would make the copper content in the seachem product negligible given that it is diluted even further by several orders of magnitude when dosed and the fact that algae uptakes quite a bit of copper.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I expressed this same concern as I was irritated that they don't disclose the NPK like most most companies to, however I then found this analysis of the dry content of macro algae that shows more potassium content than nitrogen. Granted, this is not Chaeto. If anyone has the profile for chaeto, please share.

Gracilaria Parvispora:

Nitrogen. 2.6 %
Phosphorous 0.08%
Potassium. 13.5%
Calcium. 0.55%
Magnesium. 1.16%
Sulfur. 4.80%
Zinc. 139 ppm
Iron. 107 ppm
Manganese. 20 ppm
Cooper. 7 ppm

Source: Subsea

That being said, It stands to reason that potassium nitrate as a nitrogen source should be a better option than sodium nitrate for certain macro algaes unless there is another significant source of potassium we are not accounting for. Also, If you do have high potassium levels for some reason, perhaps Gracilaria is a better option than Chaeto.

I was using a general purpose fertilizer with an NPK of 20-4-16 for a month or so in a mixed macro tank. I dosed to 40ppm nitrate once per weak. At the end of each week the nitrates and phosphates were both unreadable (near zero). The caulepa had growth spurts, but turned white when nitrates dropped too low. All the red algaes seem to tolerate swings better. I never measured potassium levels. I will not do this again as I found going to zero makes caulerpa go sexual. I am now dosing daily with NeoNitro and NeoPhos and Chaeto grow. When I run out of NeoNitro, I will switch to potassium nitrate. I will also start testing for potassium if it can be done economically.

Interestingly, I didn't realize I was dosing toxic levels of copper as well (0.05% Chelated from fertilizer), but the macro must have been absorbing it as none of the inverts suffered. I would not recommend this though now that I know better.

Also, that whole microbactor thing looks like snake oil to me. An established tank should already have these self sustaining biological processes.

Ron Shimek analyzed Caulerpa from reef tanks here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php

 

[ClownWrangler]

Ron Shimek analyzed Caulerpa from reef tanks here:

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-12/rs/feature/index.php

Thanks. I did weighted ratios normalized to nitrogen for Grac. and Caulurpa based on this and compared it to KNO3. This supports my theory that when dosing KNO3, potassium will be the limiting nutrient for Graciliara, but you would end up with a small excess of k for caulerpa and a huge excess of k for xenia, so it really depends on what you are growing. For a mixed macro tank KNO3 seams like the way to go and for a coral dominant tank without much macro NaNO3 may be the way to go (based on xenia). A mixed tank complicates things obviously.

Conclusion: NeoNitro is not a one size fits all and should be avoided IMO due to non-disclosure of N/P ratio. However if you are using it, adding Gracilaria to your refugium will remove the excess potassium.

N/P/K
Grac. 1:0.03:5.19
Caulerpa 1:0.08:2.21
Xenia 1:0.04:0.125

N/K
Grac. 1:5.19
Caulerpa 1:2.21
Xenia 1:0.125
KNO3 1:2.8

N/P
Grac. 32.5:1
Caulerpa 12.7:1
Xenia 23:1