New fish died

[trevorhiller]

I ordered a Tomini tang and a yellow watchman goby from Dr. Reef's QT fish last month. They came in on the 9th of this month and unfortunately, the YWG was DOA in the bag. Today I got up and found the Tomini tang had died. I'm soooo disappointed.

Since I had gotten him, he'd been super shy, always hiding when he spotted me but after doing some research a lot of people described similar behavior from their new tominis for the first few weeks. I saw him picking at the rocks eating since Day 1. The last two days he didn't seem to come out when I fed food and would just hide. He would eat frozen mysis, but flakes and pellets he didn't seem to want despite me feeding intentionally heavy. I had ordered some Selcon to try to entice him to eat more aggressively. I tried to examine him and couldn't see any lesions or spots on him his belly looked thin though. Also the clownfish still also look absolutely fine.

Any ideas? Could this be some sort of internal parasite that the clownfish gave to the Tang? Was this just too much stress for him moving to a new tank after the QT & Shipping process?

Dr. Reef said to watch my fish for a week to 10 days to make sure they are ok and he'll replace the fish (which is great, but I'm super disheartened by this. The last thing I want to do is keep killing fish in an attempt to fill up my tank).

 

[vetteguy53081]

Sorry to hear. Shy they can be as mine was for 8 months and now always out in the open. Mine has nothing to do with flakes and pellets but eats all meaty foods and a variety is a must.
How was fish acclimated and for how long?
What is salinity and temperature?
What is ammonia and nitrate and what test kit are you using ?
Any twitching or heavy breathing ?

 

[trevorhiller]

I acclimated him for about 25 mins using the instructions from Dr. Reef's site. My salinity was pretty close to what Dr. Reef sent so it didn't take much to adjust. I think he was like 31.8 ppt and my tank is 34.4-34.5 ppt. Temp is 77.7, but that was 11 days ago.

Nitrate is Hanna checker--4.7 yesterday. Ammonia I haven't checked in months, it's a 63 gallon system with 2 clownfish and the tang that's been running for 8 months.

I didn't notice any flashing/twitching behavior from the tang or the clownfish. Breathing seemed fine too, running a huge skimmer. Only "odd" behavior was the shyness, but he found a couple spots to hide in the tank and would go their to sleep and to hide when I was around.

 

[vetteguy53081]

I acclimated him for about 25 mins using the instructions from Dr. Reef's site. My salinity was pretty close to what Dr. Reef sent so it didn't take much to adjust. I think he was like 31.8 ppt and my tank is 34.4-34.5 ppt. Temp is 77.7, but that was 11 days ago.

Nitrate is Hanna checker--4.7 yesterday. Ammonia I haven't checked in months, it's a 63 gallon system with 2 clownfish and the tang that's been running for 8 months.

I didn't notice any flashing/twitching behavior from the tang or the clownfish. Breathing seemed fine too, running a huge skimmer. Only "odd" behavior was the shyness, but he found a couple spots to hide in the tank and would go their to sleep and to hide when I was around.

Acclimation mat be part of the issue. 25 mins does no justice and you will have wanted to equalize the salinity with that of the tank Before introduction.

here is my typical acclimation:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Acclimation mat be part of the issue. 25 mins does no justice and you will have wanted to equalize the salinity with that of the tank Before introduction.

here is my typical acclimation:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

^this. Another option is to drip acclimate. I like to double the water volume at least once for every ppt difference between tanks if I can't make my tank match the fish and set the drip rate to roughly double water volume very 30 minutes.

If you are able to match the tank salinity to the bag , I just temp acclimate 15 minutes and drop right in.

 

[trevorhiller]

Full parameter check just now just for to be sure.

temp 76.6
Salinity 35.4
Alk 8.9
Nitrate 3.2
Phosphate 0.04
Ammonia 0 ( API)
Nitrite 0 (API)
Calcium (530 yesterday, didn’t retest today)
Mag 1440 ( on Jun 2nd)

 

[bnord]

no really good advice to give you, except a great big I’m sorry. your tank parameters seem fine and hard to say what the path the fish took before he got to Dr Fish then to you. Your source is a great one, but nothing is certain
I would wait a bit and spend some time with LFSs if that is an option, to reduce the stress of another shipment
each one hurts, sorry

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Full parameter check just now just for to be sure.

temp 76.6
Salinity 35.4
Alk 8.9
Nitrate 3.2
Phosphate 0.04
Ammonia 0 ( API)
Nitrite 0 (API)
Calcium (530 yesterday, didn’t retest today)
Mag 1440 ( on Jun 2nd)

Calcium and magnesium a bit high, temp a bit low. None should cause a fish death and would only affect coral mildly.

 

[trevorhiller]

Acclimation mat be part of the issue. 25 mins does no justice and you will have wanted to equalize the salinity with that of the tank Before introduction.

here is my typical acclimation:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

Interesting... That's way longer than what Dr. Reef's website suggests here: https://drreefsquarantinedfish.com/acclimation-procedure/

I only had to repeat the water change twice to get the salinity to match and gave him an extra 5 mins to be safe. I was under the impression that an extended time in the bucket was no good because of the ammonia re-toxification problem through the mechanism you described. Not to mention the bucket water starts to cool off defeating the purpose of the 30 min float in the bag.

I would think if it were ammonia related he would have had issues way sooner or atleast heavy breathing, something...but 11 days later? Not saying you are wrong, just trying to think through this. I've never lost a fish before other than a clown that jumped out of the tank, so I'm obviously extremely bothered by losing two in two weeks.

 

[vetteguy53081]

Interesting... That's way longer than what Dr. Reef's website suggests here: https://drreefsquarantinedfish.com/acclimation-procedure/

I only had to repeat the water change twice to get the salinity to match and gave him an extra 5 mins to be safe. I was under the impression that an extended time in the bucket was no good because of the ammonia re-toxification problem through the mechanism you described. Not to mention the bucket water starts to cool off defeating the purpose of the 30 min float in the bag.

I would think if it were ammonia related he would have had issues way sooner or atleast heavy breathing, something...but 11 days later? Not saying you are wrong, just trying to think through this. I've never lost a fish before other than a clown that jumped out of the tank, so I'm obviously extremely bothered by losing two in two weeks.

The issue is not ammonia but possible sceptic shock

 

[trevorhiller]

no really good advice to give you, except a great big I’m sorry. your tank parameters seem fine and hard to say what the path the fish took before he got to Dr Fish then to you. Your source is a great one, but nothing is certain
I would wait a bit and spend some time with LFSs if that is an option, to reduce the stress of another shipment
each one hurts, sorry

Thank you, it really does suck. I was on edge the whole first week trying to make sure he was eating and doing ok after waiting a month for him to arrive. I figured if he got through the first week and was eating I was most likely safe. Yesterday swimming around appeared fine, today dead. SOOOO disappointing.

 

[trevorhiller]

Acclimation mat be part of the issue. 25 mins does no justice and you will have wanted to equalize the salinity with that of the tank Before introduction.

here is my typical acclimation:
Float for 20-30 minutes
Transfer fish and water into a clean bucket
Then . . . .
Measure the Ph, salinity and temperature of the bag water. If you can, make up some water in a container that has exactly the same measurements as the bag readings and move the fish right over, then you can add a cup of tank water to bucket every 15 mins 6 times (almost 1.5 hours)
Then check salinity in bucket and compare to tank. If no match or very close, add a cup of water every few mins until youve reached salinity and trap fish in same cup and pour off water and release into display. Release under LOW light before lights out. Fish in shipped bags produce carbon dioxide and ammonia. The carbon dioxide lowers the pH of the water in the bag, That in turn makes the ammonia non-toxic to the fish. When you acclimate them, if not done just right, you drive off the carbon dioxide faster than you are diluting the ammonia. That raises the pH of the water in the bag, and that in turn, makes the residual ammonia very toxic to the fish. Sometimes, the fish will die right in the bag

Wait, just to clarify so we are on the same page... the 25 mins I'm referencing is the actual salinity adjustment part of the process. I did float him the the bag for temp 30 mins prior to doing that. I think the only difference in the procedure I followed vs yours is Dr. Reef's suggest 10 mins instead of 15 mins between removal of and additions of extra tank water.

 

[DarkReefer]

Whilst it's possible it could be something else, I do wonder if the acclimation was a little short also.

My acclimation habit these days is to float the bag for at least 30 mins to an hour for temp.
Then after that I start acclimating the water by usually adding 1-2 shot glasses of water to the bag every 15 mins for 45 mins or so.

 

[trevorhiller]

I'm definitely willing to try a longer acclimation period on the next fish if that's the consensus. Perhaps it contributed to too much stress for him.

I also have this concern that my clownfish could have some hidden internal parasite that they infected the tang with and caused it to stop eating which made things worse. I have zero evidence to support this hypothesis other than my own neurosis because the clownfish are fat and have never had a stringy poop or signs of disease, but I did get them from Petco.

Would there be a way to prophyalically treat the clownfish for internal parasites to make sure that's not an issue or would I know if they had them?

 

[ZombieEngineer]

Would there be a way to prophyalically treat the clownfish for internal parasites to make sure that's not an issue or would I know if they had them?

Internal parasites are a slow killer. More on the timescale of weeks to months not days to weeks.

The only things the clowns could have gotten that could have killed the other two fish that fast are ich, velvet, or brook.

Much more likely acclimation stress.

 

[trevorhiller]

Internal parasites are a slow killer. More on the timescale of weeks to months not days to weeks.

The only things the clowns could have gotten that could have killed the other two fish that fast are ich, velvet, or brook.

Much more likely acclimation stress.

Ok that’s really good to know, that helps eliminate that fear from my mind. I fee confident it wasn’t one of those since there are no outward signs of disease.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

I ordered a Tomini tang and a yellow watchman goby from Dr. Reef's QT fish last month. They came in on the 9th of this month and unfortunately, the YWG was DOA in the bag. Today I got up and found the Tomini tang had died. I'm soooo disappointed.

Since I had gotten him, he'd been super shy, always hiding when he spotted me but after doing some research a lot of people described similar behavior from their new tominis for the first few weeks. I saw him picking at the rocks eating since Day 1. The last two days he didn't seem to come out when I fed food and would just hide. He would eat frozen mysis, but flakes and pellets he didn't seem to want despite me feeding intentionally heavy. I had ordered some Selcon to try to entice him to eat more aggressively. I tried to examine him and couldn't see any lesions or spots on him his belly looked thin though. Also the clownfish still also look absolutely fine.

Any ideas? Could this be some sort of internal parasite that the clownfish gave to the Tang? Was this just too much stress for him moving to a new tank after the QT & Shipping process?

Dr. Reef said to watch my fish for a week to 10 days to make sure they are ok and he'll replace the fish (which is great, but I'm super disheartened by this. The last thing I want to do is keep killing fish in an attempt to fill up my tank).

Sorry to hear. I can't say why the Tomini died, but IMO, any issues with acclimation is a red herring after this amount of time. Improper acclimation is ONLY an issue with a salinity rise (which you had at about 2.2 points) but it also manifests itself in the first 24 hours and is rectified (by the fish either getting better or dying) in 72 hours.

Temperature and pH differences have little to no bearing on the stress a fish undergoes during acclimation - not in comparison to a salinity rise or the ammonia and bacteria in the shipping water.

Jay

 

[Big Smelly fish]

Sometimes it’s just the fish didn’t do well in shipping. Stress excessive heat or cold depending on the time of year.
as far as acclimation, I only acclimate to temp and then place in tank. Been doing it like this for probably 20 or so years.

 

[Matrig]

Just a question. I notice a lot of people get their livestock shipped in the USA. Is this normal? I’ve never had anything requiring shipping here. Not to speak out of turn but I find it quite inhumane all the shipping of livestock that goes on. All suppliers have a DOA guarantee which I find appalling. Happy to hear the reasons behind this.

sorry OP. Forgot to add I’m sorry for your loss and this isn’t a crack at you.

 

[LeftyReefer]

That's a bummer OP. I got a nice tomini tang from Dr. Reef too that showed up fat and happy, and was out and eating like a pig from Day 1. great fish. very happy with it.

Glad Dr. Reef is hooking you up with another tomini tang. He's a stand up guy, imho.