If I was going to guess what is going on, my guess would be that the 25-30 nitrate level is the sweet spot for the refugium. And if the the SD lowers the nitrate a certain amount,(the bacteria may also use ammonia) it also slows the algae growth in the refugium, and the algae take up less nitrate. Maybe your SD can take the nitrate level below 10, but it would be tricky because of the refugium. Well, at least the nitrate level is staying at 30 or below.
New sulfur denitrator working great!
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I don't have a refugium, just a sump with a skimmer, socks, pumps and water and 4 brightwell no3 export blocks with surface area supposedly rated for 10,000G per block (lol). My assumption is that algae will grow in the display but my tangs eat it too fast (not a single strand of algae is in my display, just pure purple rocks and detritus in the hard to reach areas I can't get to). Looking at the tank you would think my nutrients are 0 as my colors are more pastel than deep and there are no issues with algae. My frag tank gets algae all the time I have to clean out daily as I have no fish in it to "graze" and snails do a bad job at hair algae.
@2Wheelsonly, I have a hypothesis I think you should think about before you remove the Sulphur Denitrator. If this information is correct, https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00412265 then maybe your SD isn't getting enough ammonia. Maybe at least part of the reason the corals are pale is because they are not getting enough ammonia. Maybe you should feed the fish more and/or reduce the biological filtration(reduce the nitrifying bacteria if you can). If the bacteria need ammonium salts, and use a significant amount, I think that is very useful information for a Sulphur Denitrator user to know.
Interesting article, thanks for posting this. I also read that iron was required; I don't dose this and see that instant io is fairly low on this. My test kits always show no iron but I assumed that's normal if it's consumed so quickly and just needs trace amounts in the water.
I believe you can only measure iron if you keep it at a high level like what Red Sea recommends(but there are possible symptoms of low and high iron levels). I do like the article, obviously. I believe it has information Sulphur Denitrator users(or potential users) should know about.
doggydoc10
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Hello folks. Have some questions regarding my denitrator. I have an outdoor sump system inside a green house here in South Florida
My main question is
Can I house the Sulfur denitrator in direct sunlight? Will Sun exposure grow algae that might not make the denitrator work as expected?
My main question is
Can I house the Sulfur denitrator in direct sunlight? Will Sun exposure grow algae that might not make the denitrator work as expected?
I do believe sulphur denitrators need, and consume ammonia.
microbewiki.kenyon.edu
I think the big question is, do they consume a significant amount? I think they do. I believe that nitrifying bacteria compete for ammonia against the bacteria in the sulphur denitrator. I think that nitrifying bacteria have the advantage(if they have enough surface area)because they are generally mostly in the aquarium. I think people should take that into consideration if they are using, or plan to use a sulphur denitrator.
If someone has a reef tank, and the SD does the vast majority of the nitrate removal, I think there may be a significantly higher possibility of not having enough ammonia in the reef tank,(which I believe will harm coral color and growth)especially if they run it at a low nitrate level. I think that a good last resort way(or if you just like the idea)you could add ammonia, is that you could continuously slowly dose a weak ammonium chloride solution into the sulphur denitrator. That way it could get the first bite of the apple.
Thiobacillus denitrificans - microbewiki
If someone has a reef tank, and the SD does the vast majority of the nitrate removal, I think there may be a significantly higher possibility of not having enough ammonia in the reef tank,(which I believe will harm coral color and growth)especially if they run it at a low nitrate level. I think that a good last resort way(or if you just like the idea)you could add ammonia, is that you could continuously slowly dose a weak ammonium chloride solution into the sulphur denitrator. That way it could get the first bite of the apple.
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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I do believe sulphur denitrators need, and consume ammonia.
I think the big question is, do they consume a significant amount? I think they do. I believe that nitrifying bacteria compete for ammonia against the bacteria in the sulphur denitrator. I think that nitrifying bacteria have the advantage(if they have enough surface area)because they are generally mostly in the aquarium. I think people should take that into consideration if they are using, or plan to use a sulphur denitrator.Thiobacillus denitrificans - microbewiki
If someone has a reef tank, and the SD does the vast majority of the nitrate removal, I think there may be a significantly higher possibility of not having enough ammonia in the reef tank,(which I believe will harm coral color and growth)especially if they run it at a low nitrate level. I think that a good last resort way(or if you just like the idea)you could add ammonia, is that you could continuously slowly dose a weak ammonium chloride solution into the sulphur denitrator. That way it could get the first bite of the apple.
I've not seen any convincing info on which species thrive in sulfur reactors, but the article you posted are not using elemental sulfur (thiosulfate is a different chemical). Some that do can actually produce ammonia from nitrate, not consume it.
At least one study says they could not get the species you mention to actually grow on elemental sulfur:
Anaerobic oxidation of thiosulfate and elemental sulfur in Thiobacillus denitrificans - Archives of Microbiology
Thiobacillus denitrificans strain RT could be grown anaerobically in batch culture on thiosulfate but not on other reduced sulfur compounds like sulfide, elemental sulfur, thiocyanate, polythionates or sulfite. During growth on thiosulfate the assimilated cell sulfur was derived totally from the...
link.springer.com
"Thiobacillus denitrificans strain RT could be grown anaerobically in batch culture on thiosulfate but not on other reduced sulfur compounds like sulfide, elemental sulfur, thiocyanate, polythionates or sulfite."
While these growing on elemental sulfur produce ammonia from nitrate:
Respiratory Ammonification of Nitrate Coupled to Anaerobic Oxidation of Elemental Sulfur in Deep-Sea Autotrophic Thermophilic Bacteria
Respiratory ammonification of nitrate is the microbial process that determines the retention of nitrogen in an ecosystem. To date, sulfur-dependent dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium has been demonstrated only with sulfide as an electron donor. ...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
"Cell growth was coupled to the removal of nitrate and the accumulation of ammonium and sulfate"
I found a paper that says thiobacillus denitrificans benefits from ammonium. I think it is interesting, and it may be useful if this bacteria grows in the SD. To see the whole PDF, Google search woodchip ammonium baalsrud. I also added a link to a paper about sulfur denitrator use on a public aquarium(make sure you read to the bottom of the web page).
www.researchgate.net
(PDF) Autotrophic Denitrification Using Elemental Sulfur to Remove Nitrate from Saline Aquarium Waters
PDF | The goal of this research was to elaborate an effective and economical treatment system to eliminate nitrates from a large marine basin at the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
www.researchgate.net
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Since the sulfur denitrator produces sulfate, would you still recommend that someone add or dose sulfate like they do if they use a calcium reactor or two part? Should someone add a reduced amount, or not add any sulfate?I've not seen any convincing info on which species thrive in sulfur reactors, but the article you posted are not using elemental sulfur (thiosulfate is a different chemical). Some that do can actually produce ammonia from nitrate, not consume it.
At least one study says they could not get the species you mention to actually grow on elemental sulfur:
Anaerobic oxidation of thiosulfate and elemental sulfur in Thiobacillus denitrificans - Archives of Microbiology
Thiobacillus denitrificans strain RT could be grown anaerobically in batch culture on thiosulfate but not on other reduced sulfur compounds like sulfide, elemental sulfur, thiocyanate, polythionates or sulfite. During growth on thiosulfate the assimilated cell sulfur was derived totally from the...
"Thiobacillus denitrificans strain RT could be grown anaerobically in batch culture on thiosulfate but not on other reduced sulfur compounds like sulfide, elemental sulfur, thiocyanate, polythionates or sulfite."
While these growing on elemental sulfur produce ammonia from nitrate:
"Thermosulfurimonas dismutans and Dissulfuribacter thermophilus grew in batch cultures in liquid anaerobic cultivation medium supplemented with elemental sulfur "Respiratory Ammonification of Nitrate Coupled to Anaerobic Oxidation of Elemental Sulfur in Deep-Sea Autotrophic Thermophilic Bacteria
Respiratory ammonification of nitrate is the microbial process that determines the retention of nitrogen in an ecosystem. To date, sulfur-dependent dissimilatory nitrate reduction to ammonium has been demonstrated only with sulfide as an electron donor. ...
"Cell growth was coupled to the removal of nitrate and the accumulation of ammonium and sulfate"
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I know the paper is about the WSHAD process, but I believe it has information about how ammonium would effect thiobacillus denitrificans that is growing on elemental sulfur.I found a paper that says thiobacillus denitrificans benefits from ammonium. I think it is interesting, and it may be useful if this bacteria grows in the SD. To see the whole PDF, Google search woodchip ammonium baalsrud. I also added a link to a paper about sulfur denitrator use on a public aquarium(make sure you read to the bottom of the web page).
(PDF) Autotrophic Denitrification Using Elemental Sulfur to Remove Nitrate from Saline Aquarium Waters
PDF | The goal of this research was to elaborate an effective and economical treatment system to eliminate nitrates from a large marine basin at the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate
Here is a link to the PDF. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAKegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw0jcJ6moF_H9XFfQnsLHzWK
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Randy Holmes-Farley answered my question(post#573) in the reef chemistry forum. He practically said that he would generally recommend that someone using a sulfur denitrator only add magnesium chloride, and not add any magnesium sulfate. He said the only way to know if sulfate and chloride levels are ok, is to do an ICP test.
Here is something Belgian Anthias said(part of his post) about sulfate levels in that reef chemistry forum thread.
Here is something Belgian Anthias said(part of his post) about sulfate levels in that reef chemistry forum thread.
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My reactor has been up and running now for a little over 8 weeks it is still producing nitrite I do not know what to do. The nitrite is >.5 & <1. I was thinking about turn off the water going to it and the recirculating pump for a day or two what is yall's opinion
You shouldn't turn off the recirculating pump. I think you should reduce the flow until nitrite goes away. What is the flow rate? I think that the bacteria in the sulphur denitrator need a minimum amount of ammonia and phosphate to work well. I would make sure you are feeding your tank a decent amount for its size. This may sound counter productive, but if you are not adding enough food for your tank size, and then start adding significantly more food, I think it could possibly allow the sulphur denitrator to work a lot better, and actually reduce the nitrate level a lot, if low ammonia and/or phosphate is the problem you, or anybody else have. Also, I think that you should make sure(if you don't already)that you don't increase flow to the sulfur denitrator too quickly.
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Yes I guess I'm going to have to slow down the drip rate. My tank has plenty of phosphate when I tested the other day it was over 2 not .2. I still don't understand why it's producing nitrite the drip rate is about 2 drops per second how slow do you think I should slow it down to? If I slow it down to slow it produces a large amount of gas also wanted to ask anyone able to find aquarium grade sulfur
I think that you should make sure that there aren't any bubbles going into the influent, and make sure there isn't an air leak in the SD. I think that the cause of the nitrite is most likely too much oxygen, or not enough of something in the water that the bacteria need(maybe it's ammonia). I would like to see someone take a working sulfur denitrator out of their aquarium sump, and connect it to a container with new saltwater, with just nitrate and phosphate added. I bet it wouldn't reduce the nitrate in the water(at least not for very long).
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