New tank - Alkalinity dropping

[skipcurl]

So this is my 3rd tank and it is 100G and this time I am really concentrating on Chemical Balances within the tank as I go. And I am going to go slow with this one as it will be my big display tank. In the past I have had lots of issues with precipitation and some of my sand beds have harden because of it. So we will not be doing that with this tank (along with many other things). I am going to try to run the tank at Alk 7.5, Calcium at 450, and Mag at 1350. Currently I am at 7.06 Alk, 422 Calcium and 1200 Mag, and still try to stabilize the tank (using Trident). I have no lights, just dry rock, and sand. So, I have one basic question. Since this tank is still in setup, I would expect my parms to stay somewhat the same if I do not introduce any water changes or supplements. However, over time it is obvious that the Alkalinity is dropping by about .1/day. Calcium stays the same (so I am assuming no precipitation). It is normal for a slow drop in Alkalinity. Where is it going?

Thanks,
Roger

 

[blasterman]

Is it cycling?

 

[skipcurl]

I have not introduce any carbon based items. I was going to add a dead shrimp to start the cycling. But maybe it is related to something like this. I will check my Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate levels to see if that is the case. Would cycling cause Alk to go down and Cal to stay the same???

 

[skipcurl]

I did use live sand. Hmmm....

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. Would cycling cause Alk to go down and Cal to stay the same???

Yes. Any production of nitrate from ammonia will decrease alkalinity.

 

[skipcurl]

Yes. Any production of nitrate from ammonia will decrease alkalinity.

Thanks Randy and Blasterman. So when I add the dead shrimp, I should expect even faster declines. I know this is all basic for you guys and I really appreciate it. I do have one followup. Then how can 2 parts be dosed evenly if you have the cycle process also in this balance along with the building out of corals. Or do they take that into account when they put the mix together and the cycle process is just noise.... I guess it is technically never perfect as they are many factors that chew up Alk and Calcium.

 

[blasterman]

Young tanks / cyling / establishing biological beds eats alkalinity, and can eat it really fast. They need to get carbon to grow from somewhere. Also, live sand and crushed coral contains some organics, and as these decompose (they go from a sealed bag to lots of fresh 02 in salt water) they use up alk.

Short form is alk is used up by all kinds of biological processes, especially when tanks are cycling. I woulnd't even bother test calcium and magnesium. It's not going to go anywhere and you are just wasting test kits. I would also target a higher alk value like 8.5 or 9 if you are going to balance calcium at 450.

Use a capfull of ammonia vs that dead shrimp. Saves you a lot of time.

 

[skipcurl]

And I just saw your writeup from last Wednesday from someone called.

Alkalinity decline without coral​

That explains everything I am asking. Thanks again and I am sure I will have harder questions in the future. I really want to understand this side of reefing.

Roger

 

[skipcurl]

Ok. going with Ammonia. I can increase to 8.5 but I will want to ovoid that precipitation.

 

[blasterman]

Then how can 2 parts be dosed evenly if you have the cycle process also in this balance along with the building out of corals. Or do they take that into account when they put the mix together and the cycle process is just noise.... I guess it is technically never perfect as they are many factors that chew up Alk and Calcium.

They do it to sell you product. Since the majority of new reefers are in and out of the hobby in less than 2 years and give up they just want to sell you this stuff. A couple teaspoons of baking soda or calcium chloride in a plastic bottle filled with purified water costs how much do you think to make? A buck or two? Then they sell it to you for the price you paid. It's a great racket.

You are correct.....in fact, alk is rarely stabilizes until you have lots of stony corals consuming calcium and alkalinity, and then their rate of consumption exceeds normal tank consumption so it becomes more stable. How many reefers, especially beginners have lots of fast growing stony corals in their tank? Not many. But they've been told they need two part dosing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Thanks Randy and Blasterman. So when I add the dead shrimp, I should expect even faster declines. I know this is all basic for you guys and I really appreciate it. I do have one followup. Then how can 2 parts be dosed evenly if you have the cycle process also in this balance along with the building out of corals. Or do they take that into account when they put the mix together and the cycle process is just noise.... I guess it is technically never perfect as they are many factors that chew up Alk and Calcium.

During cycling, just dose alkalinity. Baking soda is fine.

 

[skipcurl]

Hopefully, I am not a 2 year person. That is why I am taking it slow. I think the reason why I had precipitation in the past was because I was trying to dose 2 part. I learned to stay away from the Calcium later on. I really do want a SPS tank and am trying to set up quarantine tanks, etc to really have a good shot of it this time. The cost of the 2 part is cheap compared to the equipment, but I agree why give any more money to the man. I will use baking soda.

 

[skipcurl]

How long should I stay in the cycling process with the Ammonia before I add a fish or two. I am in no hurry. Also, do I keep adding ammonia every couple of days.

 

[InfamousRozay]

If you have enough bacteria and dose the enough ammonia in the beginning you should only have to do it once. From there just monitor your ammonia and nitrite levels everyday until they reach zero

 

[InfamousRozay]

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/how-to-unstick-any-seemingly-stuck-cycle.742202/

On second though, don't listen to me just go to the thread above

 

[skipcurl]

Thanks for that link. That is pretty intense and it is going to take me sometime to digest it, but I will.

 

[skipcurl]

Ok. Randy and Blasterman or whomever. It has been two weeks and I have read a lot of your articles and it still does not make sense on why Alk consumption is so high. I think I might be getting precipitation (something I do not want in this tank). For the 12 days, I have not done a WC and I have been dosing Bicarbonate (because carbonate drops when hitting the water definitely look like possible precipitation). The solution of my baking Powder (1 cup per 1 Gallon), so very diluted. I have 100 tank with 30 Gallon Sump. Dosing in the Pump return. Currently my alk is 8 and Calcium is now 399 (it started at 430). I know I am cycling, but I am not forcing the cycle at this point. I just am really trying to understand it. I would assume based on the articles I read that as your Nitrate settle at a number that Alkalinity consumption should settle down. I.E. If I did nothing for the next year, shouldn't my input of Alkalinity go to 0.

I need to pump about 60 Ml a day just to keep 8. and I think my Calicium is starting to slowly drop, which I know is a hard thing to prove because of the 10 to 1 ratio. But I think it is...

Is precipitation going to happen no matter what? I do not want Clumps in my sand in this tank.

Thanks for your expertise.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. For the 12 days, I have not done a WC and I have been dosing Bicarbonate (because carbonate drops when hitting the water definitely look like possible precipitation).

That cloudiness is normal and is transient precipitation of magnesium hydroxide with all high pH additives. It will redissolve as it mixes in.

The solution of my baking Powder (1 cup per 1 Gallon), so very diluted.

Baking soda, right? NOT baking powder?

 

[skipcurl]

Yes. Baking Soda. I thought I lost it for a second. Interesting on the precipitation of magnesium hydroxide. Are you ok with still going Bicarbonate (Bank SODA) at this time. PH is not a worry yet for me. I am still at 8.5. If I do nothing to the tank over the next 30 days will my dosing slow down? Thanks again for your articles and making this such a great site.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Baking soda is a good alk additive if the concern is precipitation.

Reduced precipitation can be approached with lower pH, alkalinity and to a smaller extent, calcium, and higher magnesium, organics, and phosphate.

Fresh CaCO3 surfaces can be most prone to more precipitation. To break the cycle, it can be useful to stop dosing for a few days, let alk fall and precipitation stop, then restart with a much lower dose.