Newbie needing dino help.

[Llorgon]

Hello all. I have been reef keeping a little under a year. In that time I have dealt with a return pump dying, power head melting and killing everything in the tank and now Dino's.

I have been fighting Dino's since October and I seem to have hit a wall with them. They started because nitrates and phosphates we're at 0. I have had my nitrates at 10ppm and phosphates around 0.2-0.5 ppm for months now. I installed a uv sterilizer and that got rid of most of the Dino's on the rocks, but did nothing for the ones in the sand.

My tank walls are green with algae and the rocks are covered in cyano with big patches of hair algae in a few places. The sand is mostly dinos, but there some spots where I can see cyano coming through. For the past month and a half I have had a large bloom of pods. They are all over the glass. I'm hoping that's a good sign.

Basically I have lost all but 3 corals and my tank has looked terrible for months. What can I do to get rid of this? Restarting is beginning to look like a valid option at this point.

Attaching some microscope images of the Dino's for a positive ID on the type.

 

[sfin52]

Welcome to the club my friend. its not prestigious it is what is . any how welcome.

Also welcome

to r2r

 

[sfin52]

I don't know what percentage of folks had luck battling dinos with any of the methods in the old Dino thread but it's obviously a very low percentage, so I'd like refresh folks on the natural alternatives and lay out three areas of info:

• some of the factors that contribute to a dino outbreak
• how to avoid common dino outbreaks
• and what do if your tank is already having an outbreak

Let's get started!

Common Contributing Factors
Some of the most common factors that contribute to the dino outbreaks we cover in this thread are:

• the tank being new, rock being immature or the tank being otherwise highly disturbed, such as by other harsh tank treatments
• hard core nutrient reduction tools being used, such as
  • organic carbon dosing
  • excess "bio media"
  • algae filtration
  • nutrient adsorbing media like GFO

These four factors, or excess nutrient removal generally, play – usually in combination; rarely just one factor alone – pretty directly into dino's conversion to the blooming, phagotrophic, mat forming, toxin-producing side of their nature.

• Starvation Is Their Cue
  • Dino's seem to prefer life as autotrophic epiphytes on macro algae – chaeto morpha seems to be one of their favorite types to host in. (Maybe this fact can be useful to us; maybe sometimes chaeto ought not be used, or used with special consideration)
  • For several reasons, dino's seem to be terrible at nutrient uptake. This means they are more prone to starvation than many or most other microorganisms they have to compete with.....especially bacteria, which can scavenge free nutrients down to CRAZY low levels...low enough to starve out other microbes or algae.
  • With their protective mucus mats, potential to generate wicked toxins, and ability to survive not only by way of photosynthesis and dissolved nutrients, but alternately, when times get tough, by "eating their neighbors". (The least of their tricks.)
  • Dino's generally gain a competitive edge against their competitors AND their predators in a nutrient-starved environment. Keep reading!

How To Avoid Having A Dino Outbreak
In a nutshell, here's how to avoid dino outbreaks and begin to normalize your tank if you already have an outbreak:

• Phosphate Control
  • DO NOT let your phosphates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation
• Nitrate Control
  • Do not let your nitrates hit or stay at zero.
  • See: Putting the N in dinoflagellates
  • See: A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)
• Starvation conditions (zero or near-zero nitrate or phosphate levels) should be avoided.
  • Keep in mind that dissolved nutrients are not "waste products" to be eliminated
  • They are nutrients for the critters you care about like corals
  • The are also nutrients for a potential multitude of mostly-unknown/anonymous microbes that are needed to bring stability to a new tank.
  • Once excess nutrients have an impact, in fact, they usually can't be simply eliminated with media anyway – they've probably already had an impact on the tank's microbial cycle. (See blog link #3 at bottom.)
  • This all adds up to skipping almost all "extra" nutrient removing steps during the tank's initial development. This period seems to be especially critical, and longer in a tank started with dry, dead rock. Don't use anything until it's absolutely needed and other options have been fully exhausted...and be conservative with how you apply any nutrient removing tool.

What to do if you're tank is already having a dino outbreak
When attempting to control an organism like a dinoflagellate, confirming the ID will help, if possible:

• So to begin with, make sure you have Dinos – you should have multiple factors at work...these factors were mentioned in the first section above. The less these factors seem to describe your tank, the less likely any of this advice will be correct for your situation – so post questions! :)
  • no special equipment is needed to confirm whether your algae sample has dino's and/or other algae
  • Use @taricha's dino confirmation guide on posts #986-987.
• Once you have confirmed that you have dino's you should ideally figure out what type(s) your tank is hosting. (Multiple species blooms seem almost as common as single-strain blooms.)
  • A basic 1200x microscope will be useful and doesn't have to be fancier than a $15 toy scope. Even a $50 scope is a lot nicer, if you think you might be more serious about it.
  • See: Selecting a microscope for more discussion.

• Compare your dino's with photos where @taricha and @Beardo have already made ID's:
• (Click the link. Then click the SEARCH button at the bottom of the search page.)
  • ostreopsis
    • Consider focusing first on posts #86 and #905
  • prorocentrum
  • amphidinium
    • Amphidinium Dinoflagellate Treatment Methods (they are unique and somewhat more experimental)
  • coolia
  • (other searches coming)

• Extra Measures
  Generally, these tools will give extra control in terms of removing and/or killing cells in the water column....usually, along with other measures explained here, expediting the close of the dino bloom.
  • UV
    You can find discussions throughout the thread by using this search, with a great breakout of spec's on post #3770.
  • Diatom Filtration
    Effective, but not that popular. The more common units like the classic Vortex are somewhat difficult to use, and the newer units like the new Marineland Polishing Filter are relatively unknown. Still worthy of consideration.

So, after you get a measure of control, make sure you read What is the End Game?

Miscellaneous Goodies

• Post #2725 has a great diary of tank observations, test results and time-series graphs during the treatment for dino's from one of our members.
• Disturbances we cause in our tanks are what allow microbial/algal populations to shift and ugly/harmful blooms to happen.
  • See: Evidence for the Existence of Three Primary Strategies in Plants and Its Relevance to Ecological and Evolutionary Theory

• Take measures to assure that your feeding system is very consistent. An auto-feeder is an overlooked tool on most tanks. Look at Eheim's feeders...set them on low with high quality flake food. Just don't let them run your whole feeding program as flake isn't great food.

• Find out what inconsistencies you can eliminate with your husbandry to prevent more unneeded disturbances and the resulting microbial/algal changes. This could be changes to lighting or water chemistry – make them as consistent as you can.

• E.g. If you're adding new livestock all the time, stop it. If you have a color-tunable light fixture, stop re-tuning the colors. If you don't have an ATO keeping your salinity stable, get one. If you're still managing your dosing by hand, get an $80 4-head doser. Etc.

• If you provide the stability, then your dino's competitors will start competing with them and their predators will start eating them!!

• One thing that seems to help things progress is to stop scraping down the algae off your glass....once the dino's start giving up space that is. Mechanical removal is a legit short-term strategy and might help give competitors a leg up too.

2¢

Other interesting more-or-less related links on my blog:

1. The role of nutrients in decomposition of a thecate dinoflagellate
2. Effects of organic carbon, organic nitrogen, inorganic nutrients, and iron additions on the growth of phytoplankton and bacteria during a brown tide bloom
   
3. Response of heterotrophic bacteria, autotrophic picoplankton and heterotrophic nanoflagellates to re-oligotrophication

(Also cross-posted in the old Dino thread!)

@mcarroll help with sand bed please.

 

[Llorgon]

Welcome to the club my friend. its not prestigious it is what is . any how welcome.

Thanks! Hoping I can get out of this club sooner rather than later. Tank is soo ugly!

Also welcome

to r2r

@mcarroll help with sand bed please.

I have read through the first 100+ pages of that thread. I have my nutrients up, I'm removing what I can, I have a Uv sterilizer going. But I'm not making much of a dent on the dinos in the sand.

 

[sfin52]

thats because the dino in the sand are not going into the water column. They are going into the sand.

 

[Brad Miller]

What are all your parameters ?

 

[sfin52]

I thought op said he got them up but thats a good point.

 

[Llorgon]

Parameters are

Temp: 79
Salinity: 1.025
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 10
Phosphate: 0.159
Alkalinity: 8.1
Calcium: 472
Magnesium: 1350

I have been keeping my phosphate and nitrate higher around 10-20ppm nitrate and 0.2-0.3 phosphate, but I just got back from a week vacation so they dipped a bit.

 

[Llorgon]

got my nitrate up to 15-20ppm and phosphate to 0.328. Did a water change and removed a bunch of the dinos. On the plus side the sand is beginning to be a mix of cyano covered dinos.. Or I think that's a plus. Better than just dinos I think.

 

[Llorgon]

Picked up some spongExcel on the weekend to start dosing silicates. I have been dosing twice a day since Saturday, but no detectable si yet.

I have been increasing my water changes to suck out the dinos on the sand. Only doing about 10 gal at a time and making sure the N and P don't drop. Right now the sand is covered in dinos again by day 3.

 

[dwest]

Picked up some spongExcel on the weekend to start dosing silicates. I have been dosing twice a day since Saturday, but no detectable si yet.

I have been increasing my water changes to suck out the dinos on the sand. Only doing about 10 gal at a time and making sure the N and P don't drop. Right now the sand is covered in dinos again by day 3.

The only way I know to measure silicates with a hobby test kit is Hanna. Just FYI. You are doing everything correct.

Are the dino pics above from the sand? I’m not a good ID person, but thinking amphidinium. This might help:
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

The only other thing I would try is adding some live rock, even small pieces, if you can get some for biodiversity.

 

[Llorgon]

The only way I know to measure silicates with a hobby test kit is Hanna. Just FYI. You are doing everything correct.

Are the dino pics above from the sand? I’m not a good ID person, but thinking amphidinium. This might help:
http://www.algaeid.com/identification/

The only other thing I would try is adding some live rock, even small pieces, if you can get some for biodiversity.

So I wasted $20 on the salifert si test kit?

Yes the pics above are off the sand. I believe amphidinium is correct. At least as far as I can tell. Isn't effected by UV, not very toxic.

I haven't tried live rock. Where is a good place to get live rock ? Fellow reefer, LFS, order it online. What sort of biodiversity am I looking for? With my luck I would end up with some other sort of pest...

 

[dwest]

Post #404 and others from the following thread has some discussion on the salifert test and silica dosing in general:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...treatment-methods.365850/page-21#post-5719909

Live rock you might be able to get from fellow reefer or LFS. We are looking for general biodiversity to that will eventually outcompete dinos.

 

[Llorgon]

Post #404 and others from the following thread has some discussion on the salifert test and silica dosing in general:
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/a...treatment-methods.365850/page-21#post-5719909

Live rock you might be able to get from fellow reefer or LFS. We are looking for general biodiversity to that will eventually outcompete dinos.

Ah. I should have read farther in the amphidinium thread before buying the test kit. I'm only on page 11.

Ok. I will look around for some good live rock. Anything I should be looking for on the live rock?

 

[dwest]

Ah. I should have read farther in the amphidinium thread before buying the test kit. I'm only on page 11.

Ok. I will look around for some good live rock. Anything I should be looking for on the live rock?

Yes, the amphidinium thread is actually short enough to get through :).

As far as liverock goes, I would just get something from an established tank if you can. You want the bacteria, pods, algaes, etc. not necessarily macro life that we might normally think of as desirable.

How is your tank doing? If you are still dosing, your tank will get really ugly. You will likely go from dinos to a mix of dinos, cyano, gha, green film algae, and diatoms. Once you see mostly non-dinos, I would add a few more snails, then stop dosing to allow the nutrients fall down to more natural levels. Just don’t let them get to zero. Good luck.

 

[Llorgon]

Yes, the amphidinium thread is actually short enough to get through :).

As far as liverock goes, I would just get something from an established tank if you can. You want the bacteria, pods, algaes, etc. not necessarily macro life that we might normally think of as desirable.

How is your tank doing? If you are still dosing, your tank will get really ugly. You will likely go from dinos to a mix of dinos, cyano, gha, green film algae, and diatoms. Once you see mostly non-dinos, I would add a few more snails, then stop dosing to allow the nutrients fall down to more natural levels. Just don’t let them get to zero. Good luck.

haha ya. I tried to read the main dinos thread, but it was just so long!

Ok I should be able to find some good liverock from a fellow reefer. I'm not sure liverock from the lfs would be good for having any algae on it.

The tank is doing ok. It's ugly, really ugly. I stopped cleaning the glass months ago so it's a nice greenish/red/brown. There are tons of pods on the glass though. Makes me not want to clean it so I don't disturb them. Rocks have some cyano, green algae, gha and some other sort of red tinged algae that is growing pretty tall. Some of the gha has dinos on the tips, but most of it is green. the sand is mostly dinos. There are some patches of cyano and I do see a bit of green in the sand in places. I will take some pictures tonight.

I really want to start buying some more fish and corals, but I know I should wait until the dinos are gone. Still would be nice to have more than 3 fish, 2 snails and 2 hermits.... soon I guess.

 

[dwest]

haha ya. I tried to read the main dinos thread, but it was just so long!

Ok I should be able to find some good liverock from a fellow reefer. I'm not sure liverock from the lfs would be good for having any algae on it.

The tank is doing ok. It's ugly, really ugly. I stopped cleaning the glass months ago so it's a nice greenish/red/brown. There are tons of pods on the glass though. Makes me not want to clean it so I don't disturb them. Rocks have some cyano, green algae, gha and some other sort of red tinged algae that is growing pretty tall. Some of the gha has dinos on the tips, but most of it is green. the sand is mostly dinos. There are some patches of cyano and I do see a bit of green in the sand in places. I will take some pictures tonight.

I really want to start buying some more fish and corals, but I know I should wait until the dinos are gone. Still would be nice to have more than 3 fish, 2 snails and 2 hermits.... soon I guess.

Sounds good actually. Nice progression.

You don’t need much rock. It’s good you have a fellow reefer to help.

I cleaned my glass and did water changes for the most part when I had amphidinium take over. Others would disagree, but wc on my tank didn’t matter.

I would try more snails to handle the algae. Unfortunately I removed my sand before my dinos went away. I think you can knock them out with silicates. Be as patient as you can stand.

Looking forward to pics. What size is your tank?

 

[Llorgon]

Sounds good actually. Nice progression.

You don’t need much rock. It’s good you have a fellow reefer to help.

I cleaned my glass and did water changes for the most part when I had amphidinium take over. Others would disagree, but wc on my tank didn’t matter.

I would try more snails to handle the algae. Unfortunately I removed my sand before my dinos went away. I think you can knock them out with silicates. Be as patient as you can stand.

Looking forward to pics. What size is your tank?

So some pieces of rubble are probably good enough?

I clean the lids, but haven't cleaned the glass. I want to, but also don't want to potentially kill all the pods that are on the glass. The 2 snails seem to like to graze on it as well.

I have started to do water changes and sucking out the dinos from the sand. I had been trying adding a filter sock and stirring the sand, but that didn't work very well. So I am slowly losing sand with each water change.

The tank is 75 gallons with a 20 gallon sump.

 

[dwest]

So some pieces of rubble are probably good enough?

I clean the lids, but haven't cleaned the glass. I want to, but also don't want to potentially kill all the pods that are on the glass. The 2 snails seem to like to graze on it as well.

I have started to do water changes and sucking out the dinos from the sand. I had been trying adding a filter sock and stirring the sand, but that didn't work very well. So I am slowly losing sand with each water change.

The tank is 75 gallons with a 20 gallon sump.

Yes, rubble is good.

I doubt you will kill the pods if you clean your glass. For every pod on your glass, there’s probably a hundred somewhere else.

For that size of tank I’d add at least 5-10 more snails. My dinos killed my snails, so if yours are alive, that’s a plus for you!

 

[Llorgon]

I only have 2 snails that survived. One I think may be immortal since it survived one of my power heads blowing up as well.

Here are some pictures with the blue lights off. Also picture of said immortal snail.