Nitrate/Phosphate Imbalance

[goldenhurricane2]

How often are you changing it now? Ever measure the phosphate in the effluent? At high levels it can deplete in a day.

Which problem specifically?

I'm changing it at every other water change (every 4 weeks exactly) because that's what it recommends on the container. Should I just try to change it at every water change (2 weeks)?

Well I guess I assumed the problem (hair algae, lightening of sps) was all related to phosphate levels being high or out of balance with nitrate levels. Basically I'd hope lowering my phosphates a tad would get rid of the hair algae and bring some color back to my sps.

Or I could explore nitrate dosing to balance out the two, but I just don't know much about that type of thing.

 

[bif24701]

Even with hair algae starting to grow?

"starting to see a little hair algae and lingbya (brown algae) too. "

It's easy to test by dosing nitrate, but I wouldn't assume it is the issue.

Yup. First 6 months my tank was at zero NO3 and low PO4. Corals were pale yet still had algae growing on the rocks. If he increased the NO3 to 5ppm by dosing potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate the macro algae would start growing again and colors would start to return some color. Could also feed more but I never saw any increases to NO3 or PO4 just by feeding more, and I feed a lot. Corals can be ok and have pale colors. Obviously there are some nutrients in the system but not enough.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I would say that you have phosphates leaching from you rock/scape.

I agree. It is quite simple. After reducing the bioload of fish the nitrogen compounds drop more quickly than the phosphate since the phosphate of years is stored in rocks and bottom sand. With water changes you export nitrogen compounds additionally but only little of the phosphate since you don´t touch the phosphate stores. At the moment every little bit of phosphate you are exporting with a water change is replaced by dissolving phosphate from rocks and sand. It is an equilibrium reaction that makes the phosphates dissolve in the same amount as you remove it. In fact there may be an imbalance of the nutrients that even creates a rise in phosphate since you had a better phosphate consumption when the level of nitrogen compounds was higher.

The low concentration of nitrogen compounds makes your corals get lighter which is quite a typical reaction. Also that your chaeto is not growing any more is a sign of nitrogen deficiency. Chaeto is a nitrogen-loving alga.

I think that GFO will not help much against your algae, at least not short-term, because they get their phosphate from the rocks they grow on.

How do you add calcium, please?

 

[goldenhurricane2]

I agree. It is quite simple. After reducing the bioload of fish the nitrogen compounds drop more quickly than the phosphate since the phosphate of years is stored in rocks and bottom sand. With water changes you export nitrogen compounds additionally but only little of the phosphate since you don´t touch the phosphate stores. At the moment every little bit of phosphate you are exporting with a water change is replaced by dissolving phosphate from rocks and sand. It is an equilibrium reaction that makes the phosphates dissolve in the same amount as you remove it. In fact there may be an imbalance of the nutrients that even creates a rise in phosphate since you had a better phosphate consumption when the level of nitrogen compounds was higher.

The low concentration of nitrogen compounds makes your corals get lighter which is quite a typical reaction. Also that your chaeto is not growing any more is a sign of nitrogen deficiency. Chaeto is a nitrogen-loving alga.

I think that GFO will not help much against your algae, at least not short-term, because they get their phosphate from the rocks they grow on.

How do you add calcium, please?

I do not add additional calcium outside of what comes from water changes. My calcium stays steady at 420-425ppm.

 

[goldenhurricane2]

Yup. First 6 months my tank was at zero NO3 and low PO4. Corals were pale yet still had algae growing on the rocks. If he increased the NO3 to 5ppm by dosing potassium nitrate or sodium nitrate the macro algae would start growing again and colors would start to return some color. Could also feed more but I never saw any increases to NO3 or PO4 just by feeding more, and I feed a lot. Corals can be ok and have pale colors. Obviously there are some nutrients in the system but not enough.

Can you tell me a little more about nitrate dosing? I've tried to feed a little more in hopes that the nitrates would go up a tad, but I haven't seen any indication of that.

 

[goldenhurricane2]

I agree. It is quite simple. After reducing the bioload of fish the nitrogen compounds drop more quickly than the phosphate since the phosphate of years is stored in rocks and bottom sand. With water changes you export nitrogen compounds additionally but only little of the phosphate since you don´t touch the phosphate stores. At the moment every little bit of phosphate you are exporting with a water change is replaced by dissolving phosphate from rocks and sand. It is an equilibrium reaction that makes the phosphates dissolve in the same amount as you remove it. In fact there may be an imbalance of the nutrients that even creates a rise in phosphate since you had a better phosphate consumption when the level of nitrogen compounds was higher.

The low concentration of nitrogen compounds makes your corals get lighter which is quite a typical reaction. Also that your chaeto is not growing any more is a sign of nitrogen deficiency. Chaeto is a nitrogen-loving alga.

I think that GFO will not help much against your algae, at least not short-term, because they get their phosphate from the rocks they grow on.

How do you add calcium, please?

Also a follow up question - should I add another fish or two to increase the bio load a little to even things out?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also a follow up question - should I add another fish or two to increase the bio load a little to even things out?

No need to add fish unless you want to. Adding more food will accomplish the same thing, whether fish eat it or not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can you tell me a little more about nitrate dosing? I've tried to feed a little more in hopes that the nitrates would go up a tad, but I haven't seen any indication of that.

There are many thread on it, such as:

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/potassium-nitrate-spectracide-stump-remover-dosing-steps.215730/

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Yup. First 6 months my tank was at zero NO3 and low PO4. Corals were pale yet still had algae growing on the rocks. .

You solved that coloration issue by nitrate dosing only?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm changing it at every other water change (every 4 weeks exactly) because that's what it recommends on the container. Should I just try to change it at every water change (2 weeks)?

Well I guess I assumed the problem (hair algae, lightening of sps) was all related to phosphate levels being high or out of balance with nitrate levels. Basically I'd hope lowering my phosphates a tad would get rid of the hair algae and bring some color back to my sps.

Or I could explore nitrate dosing to balance out the two, but I just don't know much about that type of thing.

People often misunderstand the effect of nutrients on algae. It needs many nutrients (N, P, Fe, Mo, etc.) and must have enough of every one, and an big excess of any one and just enough of all the others would not typically make algae grow faster than just enough of all of them. If any one is limiting to growth, excess of the others cannot solve that.

 

[Hans-Werner]

I do not add additional calcium outside of what comes from water changes. My calcium stays steady at 420-425ppm.

At least this does not add more phosphate as a coral rubble CO2 reactor does. So if you really have a rise in phosphate concentration it must be from the nutrient imbalance.

I think your tank is one of the quite few cases where amino acids really can help. They provide nitrogen and organic carbon in a readily available form. So your corals will gain color again and the phosphate concentration will be lowered (although I think 0,1 ppm is not really high). With time phosphate from the rocks and sand will be mobilized and phosphate concentrations will start to drop permanently. The organic carbon component in the amino acids may speed this up a bit. What I cannot predict is how your algae problem will react. Prolonged addition of amino acids can provoke cyanobacteria outbreaks.

 

[bif24701]

You solved that coloration issue by nitrate dosing only?

Simple answer yes. However I have also discovered that there are direct relationships between nutrients, light intensity, and flow. I could have turn down the light intensity but choose to increase the nutrients and haven't looked back.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Simple answer yes. However I have also discovered that there are direct relationships between nutrients, light intensity, and flow. I could have turn down the light intensity but choose to increase the nutrients and haven't looked back.

What happened with the algae when you dosed nitrate?

 

[goldenhurricane2]

So there has been a lot of really helpful information passed along on this thread and I want to sum it all up and make sure I got everything down:

Basically what has happened is that my No3 and Po4 are out of balance for some reason. However, if I can increase nitrates a little it would help with the lightening of my corals. This can be done by dosing nitrates, feeding a little extra, or even adding an additional fish or two if I choose.

The hair algae issue and the lack of growth of my cheato may not be due to the No3/Po4 issue, but could be caused by an iron deficiency.

Does this sound correct? If so, I may look into getting another fish since I have plenty of room for one or two more. I also have some amino acids (acro power) I can add to help with this situation although, I would use it sparingly as I don't want to make my microalgae situation worse.


Any other advice? It is all definitely welcome!

 

[bif24701]

What happened with the algae when you dosed nitrate?

In the display, nothing. In my fuge, the cheato will begin to drop the NO3 and a few weeks to a month later I'll probably have to add more.

 

[bif24701]

So there has been a lot of really helpful information passed along on this thread and I want to sum it all up and make sure I got everything down:

Basically what has happened is that my No3 and Po4 are out of balance for some reason. However, if I can increase nitrates a little it would help with the lightening of my corals. This can be done by dosing nitrates, feeding a little extra, or even adding an additional fish or two if I choose.

The hair algae issue and the lack of growth of my cheato may not be due to the No3/Po4 issue, but could be caused by an iron deficiency.

Does this sound correct? If so, I may look into getting another fish since I have plenty of room for one or two more. I also have some amino acids (acro power) I can add to help with this situation although, I would use it sparingly as I don't want to make my microalgae situation worse.


Any other advice? It is all definitely welcome!

I would work on bringing the NO3 up some slowly by dosing. If after a few weeks it doesn't start to grow again then try adding Iron.

 

[goldenhurricane2]

I would work on bringing the NO3 up some slowly by dosing. If after a few weeks it doesn't start to grow again then try adding Iron.

Dosing No3 over just adding a fish?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

feeding extra and adding fish does the same thing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

feeding extra and adding fish does the same thing.

Except it adds phosphate too.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Except it adds phosphate too.

would it not add phosphate after the fish is done with it?
Honest question, not just a poop joke.