Nitrate/Phosphate Imbalance

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

would it not add phosphate after the fish is done with it?
Honest question, not just a poop joke.

Yes, but in the end, it adds phosphate (almost all the P that is in it) to the water column. The fish (or whatever eats it) retain very little.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Yes, but in the end, it adds phosphate (almost all the P that is in it) to the water column. The fish (or whatever eats it) retain very little.

Fair enough..Thanks!

 

[bif24701]

Dosing No3 over just adding a fish?

Yup

 

[bif24701]

feeding extra and adding fish does the same thing.

Sure I can go out tonight and buy a bunch of fish and dump them in the tank. Then all my fish get ich or velvet and they all die.

Or I QT them for 8+ weeks as recommended meanwhile all my corals starve to death.

Or I just get an auto feeder and dump a bunch of food in my tank everyday NO3 rises after 6 weeks but I've also totally polluted the water and PO4 also went up a lot.

Or I just add some nitrate in a exact dose with control and fix the problem.

 

[Reefahholic]

All your nutrient issues discussed here. PSX has a tank full of colorful SPS. I'd definitely get this guide for a mere $5 if you wanna know how to deal with this. Trust me, the Germans are on another level.

https://www.e-junkie.com/ejm/resource/514816.php

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Sure I can go out tonight and buy a bunch of fish and dump them in the tank. Then all my fish get ich or velvet and they all die.

Or I QT them for 8+ weeks as recommended meanwhile all my corals starve to death.

Or I just get an auto feeder and dump a bunch of food in my tank everyday NO3 rises after 6 weeks but I've also totally polluted the water and PO4 also went up a lot.

Or I just add some nitrate in a exact dose with control and fix the problem.

I think that's a bit of an extreme example.
Don't you?

Honestly, when I personally want to increase nutrints I just spot feed the corals a bit more even though they don't actually need it.
When I want to lower po4 I jus add a bit of gfo or for no3 just do some extra water changes.

It up to each of us to find our own way in the hobby.

 

[bif24701]

I think that's a bit of an extreme example.
Don't you?

Honestly, when I personally want to increase nutrints I just spot feed the corals a bit more even though they don't actually need it.
When I want to lower po4 I jus add a bit of gfo or for no3 just do some extra water changes.

It up to each of us to find our own way in the hobby.

I don't have a problem with lowering PO4 or NO3. I need more of it so I found my way and it works. So I'm going to share it with others so they can find their way.

 

[goldenhurricane2]

So would dosing some amino acids raise No3 a tad? I have some acro power I've never used. Seems like it would be fit for this type of situation.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

So would dosing some amino acids raise No3 a tad? I have some acro power I've never used. Seems like it would be fit for this type of situation.

It might, and it directly supplies N, which is the benefit of nitrate anyway.

 

[Hans-Werner]

So would dosing some amino acids raise No3 a tad? I have some acro power I've never used. Seems like it would be fit for this type of situation.

Corals prefer amino acids over nitrate. So if it is amino acids it will help better than nitrate.

 

[goldenhurricane2]

Ok I dosed a cap full (about half of the recommended dose) this morning. Hopefully this does the trick!

Thanks everyone!!

 

[PSXerholic]

All your nutrient issues discussed here. PSX has a tank full of colorful SPS. I'd definitely get this guide for a mere $5 if you wanna know how to deal with this. Trust me, the Germans are on another level.

https://www.e-junkie.com/ejm/resource/514816.php

Lol, I just saw this post while reviewing the comments already made to this thread ;-)

@goldenhurricane2
It seems your tank is dealing with the results of a bacterial imbalance caused by insufficient nutrient levels ;-)

I have written my Reef Guide Part#1 exactly to resolve these sort of issues, which is a detrimental step to be done as part of Coral colorization.
In my guide I do explain and give hands on, straight to the point guidance how to identify and resolve these situations and I have gotten great feedback from all over the world from many readers that have applied the e-pub Guide and got results faster than expected in form of color increase and overall health of the tank. Their tank just looked much better in a very short amount of time.
It is written in a non-scientific language, easy to follow and to understand.
Also I like to mention that the described bacterial biology recovery method, fixed all sorts of problems even in real bad looking tanks ;-)

Since my PM rights were removed (long story), please contact me via email and I will send you a free copy of that guide Sir, since I feel very comfortable this will help you quite a lot ;-)

In the meantime, I would keep my hands off the Aminos for now until the biology is recovered. Reason for that is that the corals typically have a weakened immune system indicated by bleaching or loss of colors and I did experience a lot that Aminos in this case fueling pathogenic bacteria a lot and may cause STN/RTN by triggering bacterial diseases that we have sleeping in our tanks by default. Also, Aminos will fueling the bacteria strains that do reduce the Nitrates, which makes it even harder for the Po4 consuming bacteria to populate and help to get your issue under control ;-)

Happy Reefing,
-Andre

Recent Video of my DT, watch in HD

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It seems your tank is dealing with the results of a bacterial imbalance caused by insufficient nutrient levels ;-)

What sort of bacterial imbalance are you suggesting is caused by low nutrient levels, and what's the evidence for it?

 

[Hans-Werner]

Andre, I cannot follow all of your points but maybe you are right that amino acids support especially, lets say opportunistic bacteria. They are a nitrogen and carbon source every kind of bacteria can make use of and maybe you are right that especially the bad guys grow faster with this kind of media than the good ones. On the other side amino acids are used in reef aquaria for decades and the advantages and disadvantages are always the same.

You recommend nitrate? As calcium or sodium nitrate?

 

[goldenhurricane2]

Ok now I'm back to being more confused about what to do...

 

[Hans-Werner]

I think since you do not have a phosphate problem you can dose amino acids, especially since you already have a amino acid preparation. The moderate risk when you dose amino acid is always the same and I have not read much that amino acids have killed corals.

 

[PSXerholic]

What sort of bacterial imbalance are you suggesting is caused by low nutrient levels, and what's the evidence for it?

Wow, that is a very short but very wide ranging question Randy ;-)

But I appreciate your interest on some of the backgrounds for my previous statements.


This goes now into the very very very complex world of Microbiology that is in my opinion more than highly important to the success on a Tank system. For the other readers and followers that are interested in this subject I keep this still reasonable generic.

As you guys know Randy/Hans Werner, bacteria strains in the tank are the most influencing part, and form the microbiology that is terrible complex and been affected by an endless amount of factors, in my opinion the reason for the statement that every tank is different which it is due to that.

An imbalance in the bacteria biology (decades ago called monoculture), is in theoretical measures being noticed when the nutrients in the tank are going out of whack when so far the normal methods of filtration have been applied and worked out in a way that the tank had nutrients in an acceptable range before.

This can be observed by example:
Nitrates increasing while no or very low phosphates are present (very often to see)
Increasing Phosphates while Nitrates are very low or non-detectable anymore
Alongside these two difficult to resolve situations, any situation where one of the two mayor nutrients is missing are leading down the road to bacterial imbalances.

Another side effect to the above is certain Nuisance algae and very often Cyano issues since these bacteria do benefit from the absence/reduction of the probiotic bacteria (good bacteria) strains.


As many people know, certain carbs are required to populate and overpopulate the good bacteria in the Nitrogen cycle. These bacteria are not just a few ones that do just consume nutrients. Each bacteria strain has a tendency to consume preferred certain wastes in our tanks.
Means different carbon additives do enhance bacteria, but in different efficiencies.

I personally have seen and experienced this very well by applying V,VV,VSV & VSV+A carbon dosing methods on my own tanks for years now.
A few notes:
Sugars, Coke, Honey, Malts for example intend to feed white bacteria more than others
Vodka pure or higher concentrations in VSV Carbon mixes seem to increase Nitrate reducing bacteria and Cyano as well some pathogens
Vinegar with less amount of Vodka seem to be more efficient when trying to reduce Po4, less effect on Pathogens and Cyano.
Ammonium seem to fuel the bacteria of the first part of the N2 cycle to Superboost Nitrate reduction when certain criteria are met on the bacteria of the second part of the cycle.
Aminos do actually support overpopulation and fuel bacteria of many strains of bacteria and fungi, careful while it feeds pathogens when probiotic bacteria is limited.


Long story short, depending of what you feed and important limiting your bacteria with, different strains will result in different waste and nutrient consumptions. To make it difficult, the supply chain of bacterial foods will decide which bacteria strains will compete out the others.

Now you may see where I’m heading to. A limited and reduced strain that is mostly consuming Phosphates will have issues to populate back to a healthy balanced bacterial count, while being outcompeted from other bacteria strains.

It all goes back to Liebig’s law of the minimum at the end which applies to almost everything on this planet ;-)


Evidence???? Well, this bacterial behavior is well known by companies that do produce today’s engineered bacterial cocktails that basically do one particular job and die slowly off until the next dose. You can imagine they won’t like to share their practices and secrets.

Most of my facts and experiences are based on years of education and trial due to published books, articles, study reports as well as many conversations with people in the waste management, biochem, saltwater related and medical industries. Not to forget many of my Reefer friends all over the globe, as well some experts in the hobby ;-)
Most interesting studies are to be found in the biochemistry and medical field, where the funding is provided for bacterial behavioral studies including the equipment needed for those.
I have received often from marine biologists and chemists (some of them are well known to you) basically sort of confirmation of the above assumptions.

I’m running out of time a bit and hope I covered my points so far.

-Andre

 

[goldenhurricane2]

Thanks for the explanation... so if I understand what you're saying: I have an imbalance in bacteria and need to increase the bacteria that feeds on Po4 because there is plenty of bacteria present that feeds on No3. How would I go about adding this bacteria? Is it something like the bottles that many LFS sell?

Also are there any possible negative side effects to adding bacteria?

Finally is there any negative side effect to adding amino acids (acro power) besides a possible small case of Cyanobacteria?

I really want to do the right thing here but I'm getting conflicting info... however, if all the info provided has little or no side effects, I'd be open to trying more than one method to solve this issue.

In the end, I'd like 2 things here: for my Po4 to go down so the hair algae goes away and and for my corals to gain some color back (especially sps).

Thanks everyone!

 

[PSXerholic]

Thanks for the explanation... so if I understand what you're saying: I have an imbalance in bacteria and need to increase the bacteria that feeds on Po4 because there is plenty of bacteria present that feeds on No3. How would I go about adding this bacteria? Is it something like the bottles that many LFS sell?

Also are there any possible negative side effects to adding bacteria?

Finally is there any negative side effect to adding amino acids (acro power) besides a possible small case of Cyanobacteria?

I really want to do the right thing here but I'm getting conflicting info... however, if all the info provided has little or no side effects, I'd be open to trying more than one method to solve this issue.

In the end, I'd like 2 things here: for my Po4 to go down so the hair algae goes away and and for my corals to gain some color back (especially sps).

Thanks everyone!

Basically yes.
It's not just adding any bacteria and some nitrates in my opinion and from experience.

Send me an email to [email protected] and I will send you a copy of my Reef Guide Part#1 for your use.
This will explain the situation, what to do and how, with all the things to look out for when increasing nutrients while giving hints how to avoid Cyano and other issues.
You do not want to make things worse, so take then some hours to read through it, it's only a bit more then 40 pages.

In the meantime get some Potassium Nitrate like Stomp Remover, since in your situation the bacterial potassium depletion will increase at some point.

Also tell me more about the filtration system and methods of nutrient reduction you do typically.
Just to see what led to this imbalance.
Did you dose a Bacterial product a while back???

-Andre

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

While I don't dispute that bacteria have important effects on corals that they may be growing on or in, I'm not convinced that different levels of nitrate and phosphate impact bacteria in a way that in turn causes problems for corals.