Nitrite Toxicity

[Duncan62]

before you go, can you back up the claim about mass loss here

set in the link so we can read it


wanted to see if anything typed can be shown independently, not relayed or summarized by you but linked then we will read and assess relevancy

if after this many direct requests for links we don’t get any I understand. Still wanted to request some if possible


if there are nitrite losses in reefing you know of I legit want to see them so that we can have another reference to consult.

You're stating that a fish has never died a stress related death due to being added to early in the nitrogen cycle? Do you actually know any people with aquariums ot just these people that you can intimidate with graffs about nitrite uptake in a European sole. Look impressive but unless. But you guys follow it. While your stuff dies lots of mine will out live both of us.

 

[Lasse]

but then, to say there is instead, some subacute toxicity, well that requires references,

Or if you say that there is no subacute toxicity - we need references that it is not.

We really do not know because there is no investigations about it.

Note - I do not say that there is any sublethal effects of nitrites - I just say - we do not know if there is sublethal toxic effects or not. We can´t use test methods for LC50xx to say that there is no toxic effects at all. Toxic substances does not only means something that kills - it can also be chronic toxic or sublethal toxic.

What I do have is 55 years of empirical knowledge that I have never had nitrite become toxic for any marine fish, ever.

How do you know that. How do you know that - as an example - stress caused by elevated levels not make chronic damage on the chloride cells (that's probably work the other way around in salt water fish) You do not know that. That stress caused by high levels can promote infectious diseases you do not know that, I have as long empirical knowledge as you - and that have learned me that I can never state that because I have not seen anything it never have happens. The only time I can say that something have happens in a chain of events is when I have seen it and track it down. Because people do not measure nitrite we have not any references to showing no credible results either way

@Duncan62 slow down.

I´m total convinced that nitrite in saltwater is much lesser acute toxic compared with freshwater - the fish will not die as easy as in freshwater, There is facts supporting that statement, But if it have sublethal toxicity or not - there is no scientific investigation I know of that show either way. My standpoint is that you should not put living organisms into aquariums with high nitrite (over o.5 - 1 maybe) just because you do not know if this can harm the fish in/ or after 1, 2, 3 month and so on.

In this discussion - IMO the burden of proof lies with those who recommend other people to put in fish at high nitrite levels. Not for us that say - for safety reasons (lack of evidences in either way) do not do it. wait till the levels have decrease below x ppm before. It will - just be patience and wait.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Duncan, you were asked to post the link yourself, to show you did some effort and weren't making all this up

Showing some work you've done in the matter will help tremendously. Nobody has made a convincing case for toxicity, the only links exist state its non toxic at levels we encounter.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/rhf/index.php

Show work you've done as a link we can inspect, something that shows you gave thought to the matter before today.



Lasse, you're digging in heels despite being corrected twice now



It stands out that you disagree with Randy's article. I've been using it with great success a while now, that's in support of the article. I kept most of my cycle works handy as scrolling pages in messages, why doesn't anyone bother to interview a recent cycler for real assessment?


You both were asked to post very basic support links but continue with only personal summary, across posts, not just here.

If you have any sources not subject to personal summary and relevant to nitrite in the reef tank, post them. I posted one above why is that impossible to get in return?

 

[Lasse]

When I give advises to newbies about nitrification cycle - I´ll base this on basic standards. One "bible" in this is Fowler´s Zoo and Wild Animal Medicine chapter 23 - Basic Water Quality Evaluation for Zoo Veterinarians. Their proposed concentration of nitrite is below 0.1 mg/L (ppm)

And they are adware of the higher tolerance for NO2 in marine organisms as it is shown in chapter 25 - still they suggest concentrations below 0,1 mg/L

In one old investigation from 1977 the Authors did experiments with nitrite and calcium free seawater and found a high mortality even in saltwater for nitrite if it was zero in calcium. Ca is not any problems for us because our concentrations is around 4 time higher than their threshold value - but their investigation indicate that there was unknown factors in sea water that needs to be investigated before definitely threshold could be set. However - they concluded that the study indicate that mortalities of salmonides from nitrite toxicity should not be a serious problem

​

I say it once again - Nitrite toxicity in the broader sense could or could not be a problem - I do not know. And as long as I have this uncertainty - I will never advice people in a start up procedure to put in fish in water known for high concentrations of NO2. Especially if the start include methods like fishless cycling with addition of high amount of ammonia or the rotten shrimp method. There is investigations that show that high concentrations of ammonia could inhibit the second step in nitrification, hence cause a stall in the process and therefore contribute to a rise in nitrite

In methods that are based on very low daily inputs of ammonia like the 15 steps and trace addition of chemical ammonia the stall of step two will not happen - IME and no risk for high levels of NO2

There is up to other to do what they want in these discussions but I will always argue against these people that minimize the nitrite toxicity in the broader sense as long as we do not know for sure, It is living things we handle.

It is also up every one which advises to follow

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Duncan62]

Or if you say that there is no subacute toxicity - we need references that it is not.

We really do not know because there is no investigations about it.

Note - I do not say that there is any sublethal effects of nitrites - I just say - we do not know if there is sublethal toxic effects or not. We can´t use test methods for LC50xx to say that there is no toxic effects at all. Toxic substances does not only means something that kills - it can also be chronic toxic or sublethal toxic.


How do you know that. How do you know that - as an example - stress caused by elevated levels not make chronic damage on the chloride cells (that's probably work the other way around in salt water fish) You do not know that. That stress caused by high levels can promote infectious diseases you do not know that, I have as long empirical knowledge as you - and that have learned me that I can never state that because I have not seen anything it never have happens. The only time I can say that something have happens in a chain of events is when I have seen it and track it down. Because people do not measure nitrite we have not any references to showing no credible results either way

@Duncan62 slow down.

I´m total convinced that nitrite in saltwater is much lesser acute toxic compared with freshwater - the fish will not die as easy as in freshwater, There is facts supporting that statement, But if it have sublethal toxicity or not - there is no scientific investigation I know of that show either way. My standpoint is that you should not put living organisms into aquariums with high nitrite (over o.5 - 1 maybe) just because you do not know if this can harm the fish in/ or after 1, 2, 3 month and so on.

In this discussion - IMO the burden of proof lies with those who recommend other people to put in fish at high nitrite levels. Not for us that say - for safety reasons (lack of evidences in either way) do not do it. wait till the levels have decrease below x ppm before. It will - just be patience and wait.

Sincerely Lasse

Agreed. Experience shows that high nitrite in combination with other New system problems have killed lots of fish for first timers. I would still like to see a study by a true academic that puts butterfly and singapore angles in 200ppm of nitrate to judge reaction and long term health. Good job for our chemistry professor.

 

[Duncan62]

Agreed. Experience shows that high nitrite in combination with other New system problems have killed lots of fish for first timers. I would still like to see a study by a true academic that puts butterfly and singapore angles in 200ppm of nitrate to judge reaction and long term health. Good job for our chemistry professor.

Lasse is wise.

 

[brandon429]

he posted some links to reinforce his stance. Do you have any to add or just coat tailing it all the way


show us losses from reef2reef you saw Duncan, post those cycle losses you mention
“Experience shows that high nitrite in combination with other New system problems have killed lots of fish for first timers”



Duncan try and show this expected patterned loss we need to see the claimed examples. I know they don’t exist because I’ve been collecting cycle examples here a long time, and saved most of the work links. Let’s see your proof using rtr threads.

those were educating links for the counter argument Lasse, nice contribution. Those belong in the thread.

 

[Duncan62]

he posted some links to reinforce his stance. Do you have any to add or just coat tailing it all the way

You both are using data that's useless to an fish or reef keeper. I agreed several times that nitrite is not the killer. It does cause stress which increases the chance of parasites and infection. I'm not wasting my time chasing down countless book and articles that all agree it causes stress. The biggest killer. Also any nitrite at all will kill many inverts that are more sensitive. I agree with you that testing nitrite after run in most time is unnecessary. If you want to prove your point in the real world then maintain a tank with hardy fish at the level of 200ppm like you buddy stated. That's the test of all the research he compiled from other sources. Prove your point . Live thriving animals in my system is all I need to see reality. If you want it's easy to find people here with problems. There's your link.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

to say people have never lost fish to nitrite stress is just not true.

Many, many fish are lost early in aquaria. Whether any marine fish has EVER been lost in a cycling a normal aquarium due to nitrite is not answered by that. There are other clearly toxic things around in such a scenario.

Since you are claiming it is true, what is the evidence? I see nothing from you except assertions that it is dangerous.

What is my evidence? Controlled studies. Are they perfect? No. Not very many species have been tested. But every one that has been shows relatively little sensitivity to nitrite.

Is a fish stressed by elevated nitrite that is encountered in a typical reef after ammonia drops to acceptable levels? I do not know. But such scenarios are short lived, so even if a fish is stressed, it does not last long and likely won't lead to fish loses.

Let's not get too wound up about nitrite possibly stressing a fish in a new aquarium. Such fish are beset by lots of stresses, such as ammonia, being trapped in a shipping bag, removed from the water, etc. Loses at this time are zero evidence of nitrite effects.

 

[brandon429]

I’ll let your response Duncan stand on its own among the works posted here. Readers can discern for themselves based on the range of input and response and references linked from outside this discussion


impressed by Lasses references added here.

 

[Duncan62]

You both are using data that's useless to an fish or reef keeper. I agreed several times that nitrite is not the killer. It does cause stress which increases the chance of parasites and infection. I'm not wasting my time chasing down countless book and articles that all agree it causes stress. The biggest killer. Also any nitrite at all will kill many inverts that are more sensitive. I agree with you that testing nitrite after run in most time is unnecessary. If you want to prove your point in the real world then maintain a tank with hardy fish at the level of 200ppm like you buddy stated. That's the test of all the research he compiled from other sources. Prove your point . Live thriving animals in my system is all I need to see reality. If you want it's easy to find people here with problems. There's your link.

Also, posting info that was created by others is the ultimate coat tailing.

 

[Duncan62]

I’ll let your response Duncan stand on its own among the works posted here. Readers can discern for themselves based on the range of input and response. We can see you are overstating claims clearly and that no examples are coming for the claims

Build a nitrite rich tank and document your success. There's a real test.

 

[Duncan62]

Build a nitrite rich tank and document your success. There's a real test.

BTW. Site your own research. Not that of others.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

. Prove your point . Live thriving animals in my system is all I need to see reality. If you want it's easy to find people here with problems. There's your link.

Sad that you do not recognize the fallacy of such an argument.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Build a nitrite rich tank and document your success. There's a real test.

You enjoy hyperbole, but it's not really useful for a debate about whether nitrite is a concern to reefers.

No one except you is claiming that folks should keep aquaria at 100 ppm nitrite.

The simple assertion that I am making is that nitrite levels attained in normal reef aquarium husbandry are not a concern.

The fact is that 100 ppm nitrite is not attained in a reef tank. There's no need to make false claims that I am suggesting one should do it.

I am simply saying ignore it.

 

[Duncan62]

Sad that you do not recognize the fallacy of such an argument.

I do. No fallacy. Part of this problem is NEW TANKS. There's the nitrate problem. I'm talking about NEW TANKS. The rest has been a waste of time.

 

[Duncan62]

You enjoy hyperbole, but it's not really useful for a debate about whether nitrite is a concern to reefers.

No one except you is claiming that folks should keep aquaria at 100 ppm nitrite.

The simple assertion that I am making is that nitrite levels attained in normal reef aquarium husbandry are not a concern.

The fact is that 100 ppm nitrite is not attained in a reef tank. There's no need to make false claims that I am suggesting one should do it.

I am simply saying ignore it.

You said earlier. That 200ppm to 300. Your words.

 

[Duncan62]

You said earlier. That 200ppm to 300. Your words.

Most people want a healthy aquarium. That's all. Use you knowledge to help. Just say not to add animals to a tank that is in the nitrite stage of the cycle. Many will read you "research " and think they can add anytime without problems.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do. No fallacy. Part of this problem is NEW TANKS. There's the nitrate problem. I'm talking about NEW TANKS. The rest has been a waste of time.

We agree that new tanks are risky and stressful, just not on the reasons why.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

You said earlier. That 200ppm to 300. Your words.

Absolutely I used those numbers in my argument. It would be great if you provided some different numbers and the experiment that justified them. Those numbers are hard, scientific data for the LC50 that justifies my claim that the 1 ppm that might be seen in a reef tank is not likely a problem. That is how regulators set tox limits. They look for effects vs concentration, then set a limit well below the lowest level known to observe an undesirable effect.

I certainly did not say that one should run a tank at the LC50 of an organism. lol