Nitrite Toxicity

[Lasse]

@Randy Holmes-Farley
How could one dose nitrite? What chemical could I use to explore this?

Google E250 and E249 and E:numbers

As stated above - it is impossible to sort out one single cause for mortality when establishing a new tank - they all can contribute
As stated above it is possible to bring two possible reasons down to zero with a complete and proper nitrification process.

This is not a discussion of chemistry - it is a discussion of husbandry and ethical approach to reefing .

Why take the highest LD50 numbers as examples - why not take the lowest and try to figure out when the first individual will die of that species.

There are other more significant and likely culprits for "problems" in new tanks. What evidence is there that nitrite is the issue as opposed to something else?

Once again

Exactly my opinion - why when add a possible stress moment with nitrite to this? Taking care of the ammonia and nitrite is easy thing to achieve before adding livestock in a tank that is cycled with techniques that give a high ammonia input in the start. Or start the tank with a low ammonia input techniques,

The stress in the bag - out of water any many other things we can´t change so much - but the nitrification cycle we can handle.

Once again - that something is toxic does not means that it kill directly and of all the stress moments we have when we stock a new tank had importance for the outcome. Let us fix the things we can fix and lower the total stress in these moments.

It is not a question of killing fish or not - it is a question of decent husbandry with living things

To recommend anyone to add new livestock to a tank that content above 0.5 ppm NO2 is not good husbandry IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Exactly my opinion - why when add a possible stress moment with nitrite to this? Taking care of the ammonia and nitrite is easy thing to achieve before adding livestock in a tank that is cycled with techniques that give a high ammonia input in the start. Or start the tank with a low ammonia input techniques,

The stress in the bag - out of water any many other things we can´t change so much - but the nitrification cycle we can handle.

Once again - that something is toxic does not means that it kill directly and of all the stress moments we have when we stock a new tank had importance for the outcome. Let us fix the things we can fix and lower the total stress in these moments.

It is not a question of killing fish or not - it is a question of decent husbandry with living things

To recommend anyone to add new livestock to a tank that content above 0.5 ppm NO2 is not good husbandry IMO.

Sincerely Lasse

I certainly have no problem with someone wanting to hedge all bets and minimize nitrite. Not adding a fish until it is gone is a fine plan. At worst, it is a waste of time and effort. For many folks, that's OK.

What I am not OK with is folks asserting, without evidence, that nitrite IS causing fish problems in ordinary reef aquaria, cycling or not.

I am perfectly happy with someone saying:

"I do not know if nitrite is a tox problem in cycling, but I want to minimize any concern so I am going to wait to add any fish until I cannot detect any nitrite".

 

[Cell]

Unless I'm missing something, we have no real evidence that the presence of nitrite at sublethal levels cause stress on the fish at all.

 

[Duncan62]

I’m still confused why you think nitrite in new tanks is toxic. Something you’ve observed with fish dying? I think we would all like to see some sort of actual example or basis for your arguments instead of just saying your tank is healthy so it must be true.

Why was a nitrite test kit invented if it's not an important part of cycling a tank? With the exception of a few people here every book, magazine, and experienced reef keeper says its a problem in NEW TANKS. THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS ONE THING BUT YOU SHOULD DISREGARD THAT. DO LIKE THESE GUYS SAY. HELL, WHY NOT JUST ADD FISH SALT ROCKS AT THE SAME TIME AND STIR. FORGET TIME PROVEN METHODS.

 

[Duncan62]

There are other more significant and likely culprits for "problems" in new tanks. What evidence is there that nitrite is the issue as opposed to something else?

Anyone who thinks nitrite doesn't contribute to stress should find a new hobby.

 

[Cell]

What I do know is that the entire process of getting a fish into my tank in incredibly stressful to the animal. Should we not be fish keeping at all then?

 

[Cell]

Anyone who thinks nitrite doesn't contribute to stress should find a new hobby.

Sorry, this isnt religion. Proof is needed.

 

[fachatga]

Why was a nitrite test kit invented if it's not an important part of cycling a tank? With the exception of a few people here every book, magazine, and experienced reef keeper says its a problem in NEW TANKS. THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS ONE THING BUT YOU SHOULD DISREGARD THAT. DO LIKE THESE GUYS SAY. HELL, WHY NOT JUST ADD FISH SALT ROCKS AT THE SAME TIME AND STIR. FORGET TIME PROVEN METHODS

I asked a simple question. I’m honestly trying to understand what you’re saying. If yelling at me in caps is all you can do I understand. So are you saying that the presence of a test kit means it’s toxic if present? Nitrite kits have plenty of uses. I’m just wanting to know why you believe your views. If you have any evidence or examples besides saying healthy tanks are healthy because you say so

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As stated above - it is impossible to sort out one single cause for mortality when establishing a new tank - they all can contribute
As stated above it is possible to bring two possible reasons down to zero with a complete and proper nitrification process.

Of course, I agree. I stated the same above.

That is why I look to actual tox studies of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, rather than making any claim based on hobbyists results. Even an actual tox study might be misleading if the amount dosed is very high. Did the 3,200 ppm nitrite LC50 shown below result in any ammonia in the water? Hard to know for sure unless the scientists measured it.

I have not even mentioned the "highest LD50" numbers from the literature. Those are way, way higher than the lower numbers mentioned.

For example, the LC50 over 96 hours for the common eel is 3,200 ppm nitrite.

 

[Duncan62]

Sorry, this isnt religion. Proof is needed.

Start your tank. Add delicate fish. Monitor fish and nitrite levels. Simple experiment

 

[Duncan62]

I asked a simple question. I’m honestly trying to understand what you’re saying. If yelling at me in caps is all you can do I understand. So are you saying that the presence of a test kit means it’s toxic if present? Nitrite kits have plenty of uses. I’m just wanting to know why you believe your views. If you have any evidence or examples besides saying healthy tanks are healthy because you say so

Sorry about all caps. Typo. Lol

 

[Duncan62]

Of course, I agree. I stated the same above.

That is why I look to actual tox studies of ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, rather than making any claim based on hobbyists results. Even an actual tox study might be misleading if the amount dosed is very high. Did the 3,200 ppm nitrite LC50 shown below result in any ammonia in the water? Hard to know for sure unless the scientists measured it.

I have not even mentioned the "highest LD50" numbers from the literature. Those are way, way higher than the lower numbers mentioned.

For example, the LC50 over 96 hours for the common eel is 3,200 ppm nitrite.

What about a copperband? I'm curious.

 

[Cell]

Start your tank. Add delicate fish. Monitor fish and nitrite levels. Simple experiment

I think @brandon429 has pointed out, we already do have many logged instances of people stocking fish in the presence of nitrite with no observed negative effects.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Why was a nitrite test kit invented if it's not an important part of cycling a tank? With the exception of a few people here every book, magazine, and experienced reef keeper says its a problem in NEW TANKS. THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS ONE THING BUT YOU SHOULD DISREGARD THAT. DO LIKE THESE GUYS SAY. HELL, WHY NOT JUST ADD FISH SALT ROCKS AT THE SAME TIME AND STIR. FORGET TIME PROVEN METHODS.

lol

Your rationale is that if something is sold, it must be useful in your application?

 

[Garf]

Why was a nitrite test kit invented if it's not an important part of cycling a tank? With the exception of a few people here every book, magazine, and experienced reef keeper says its a problem in NEW TANKS. THE REST OF THE WORLD SAYS ONE THING BUT YOU SHOULD DISREGARD THAT. DO LIKE THESE GUYS SAY. HELL, WHY NOT JUST ADD FISH SALT ROCKS AT THE SAME TIME AND STIR. FORGET TIME PROVEN METHODS.

I think it’s just folks who can’t wait for a full cycle often make a lot of noob mistakes.There seems to be a correlation between impatience and using dodgy equipment, errors in water composition, inexperience basically. I cannot understand the rush, it never used to be the case. Use the time for cycling to learn as much as possible before condemning livestock. The cycle is the “first test” as a reefer, a mini apprenticeship, as it were, where you learn testing, keeping water, without killing stuff.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

What about a copperband? I'm curious.

I wish there was data for every compound for every fish. Unfortunately, there is not, so we go with what is known, not what we wish was known.

Is there a reason to think it more sensitive to nitrite than other marine fish?

 

[Duncan62]

What about a copperband? I'm curious.

Can a imperative angle live in that?

I certainly have no problem with someone wanting to hedge all bets and minimize nitrite. Not adding a fish until it is gone is a fine plan. At worst, it is a waste of time and effort. For many folks, that's OK.

What I am not OK with is folks asserting, without evidence, that nitrite IS causing fish problems in ordinary reef aquaria, cycling or not.

I am perfectly happy with someone saying:

"I do not know if nitrite is a tox problem in cycling, but I want to minimize any concern so I am going to wait to add any fish until I cannot detect any nitrite".

Finally.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Start your tank. Add delicate fish. Monitor fish and nitrite levels. Simple experiment

Is it? If you want to conclude nitrite is an issue, you also need to monitor all other reasons fish die.

If I had said:

"Start your tank. Add delicate fish. Monitor fish and ammonia levels. Simple experiment"

Is that a simple experiment to prove ammonia is the issue? Why not? Because nitrite might be the cause?

 

[Duncan62]

I wish there was data for every compound for every fish. Unfortunately, there is not, so we go with what is known, not what we wish was known.

Is there a reason to think it more sensitive to nitrite than other marine fish?

It's simply a delicate fish. A better example than a common eel. I'm curious. I know you know the numbers. Please.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Can a imperative angle live in that?

I do not know how toxic nitrite is to any fish not listed in my article. Either, I think, do you.