Duncan62
Valuable Member
Would you rather see a damsel pass or a large expensive fis or coral? I don't want anything to die but I'd rather loose 5 bucks than 100.
Nitrite Toxicity
- Thread starter Areeflover
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Just having a hard time understanding your philosophy when you seem to be contradicting yourself with the unproven concern over nitrite vs the well documented negative effects of ammonia in regards to fish in cycling. But if you want to resort to namecalling, that shows your true colors, not mine.
NeonRabbit221B
2500 Club Member
...This shows your true colors. Lecturing others about the hobby and then subjecting living things to ammonia burns because "its 5 bucks". Instead of providing data and links you have resorted to personal attacks. Please go to my profile and hit that little ignore button for me please since you clearly can't contribute to the topics and are an inhumane hobbyist.
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So your level of care/concern is dependent on cost of the animal?
What happened to this?
Duncan62
Valuable Member
Yes cost matters . Life is full of choices and tradeoffs. You must have enough privilege and funds to risk killing an expensive animal. It's about limiting exposure. Just like ammonia and nitrate. Why put fish in either? I choose not to and for some reason it chaps your butt. I'll do mine and you do yours.
Duncan62
Valuable Member
Duncan62
Valuable Member
And I'm not any more inhumane than anyone who keeps fish. That's why I strive to keep things healthy.
dude you are saying that nitrites are too harmful for fish but are knowingly putting fish in with ammonia present which is infinitely more harmful and I don't think you will find a single person who disagrees with that.
Duncan if its any consolation this same series of events happened to me when I posted in the chemistry forum that bacterial digestion actions are required to modulate the passage of phosphate out of rocks and into the water. it was a deserved received hazing as I had no links for that. still stings.
links bring safety usually. I carry three for each major reefing offense in my digital pocket always.
links bring safety usually. I carry three for each major reefing offense in my digital pocket always.
Duncan62
Valuable Member
If you look back it all started because I said nitrite can contribute to stress. You are part of the " inclusive " crowd that only includes the ones that think alike. Really inclusive.
Duncan62
Valuable Member
No. I'm saying it's a contributing factor. That's it. Simple.
Duncan62
Valuable Member
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@Duncan62 I think you are missing the point. I am confident that nobody here is intending to insult you or claim that your tank is not successful.
The question of this thread is about nitirite toxicity specifically. You seem to defend that it is toxic and fish should not be subjected to it, but contradict your own claim with the use of damsels for cycling instead of a fishless cycle. Instead of providing any studies or information, you seem to keep providing only anecdotal evidence and emotional appeals.
Research seems to show that nitrite is not very toxic in marine environments and is mostly considered an issue because of its high toxicity in freshwater tanks.
It seems that most issues come from other factors common with beginners for fish deaths in improperly cycled or new tanks as opposed to being attributed to nitrite.
@Lasse is providing a different perspective with some research backup. This is more inline with the thinking that we still do not know all details or aspects of reef-keeping, so continual studies should be done. Different opinions work in a beneficial discussion if scientific methods and rational arguments are made rather than using logical fallacies and only touting our own opinion. It's best if we present valid arguments with research and documentation to back them up and address and counter (if necessary) the arguments posed against ours.
I still wish we could answer the question as to how harmful or stressful nitrite is to fish, but it seems to me from what I read that this is not one of the most important questions that beginners trying to understand cycling need to ask. Of course, longer cycle time before fish introduction seems to be always better to ensure complete nitrogen cycle.
This also brings to question, though, whether measurements of ammonia converting to nitrite and then to nitrate are enough for complete cycle indication. What about cases where the overall ammonia amount is not as high as the introduced fish/invertebrate/coral bioload and there is not enough bacteria to work fast enough to overcome the ammonia introduction rate? Maybe there is enough bacteria to make the conversion over a length of time, but it really seems like there needs to be a measure more relative to the intended bioload. Is this currently maintained by reaching certain levels of ammonia that are converted within a certain time-frame?
The question of this thread is about nitirite toxicity specifically. You seem to defend that it is toxic and fish should not be subjected to it, but contradict your own claim with the use of damsels for cycling instead of a fishless cycle. Instead of providing any studies or information, you seem to keep providing only anecdotal evidence and emotional appeals.
Research seems to show that nitrite is not very toxic in marine environments and is mostly considered an issue because of its high toxicity in freshwater tanks.
It seems that most issues come from other factors common with beginners for fish deaths in improperly cycled or new tanks as opposed to being attributed to nitrite.
@Lasse is providing a different perspective with some research backup. This is more inline with the thinking that we still do not know all details or aspects of reef-keeping, so continual studies should be done. Different opinions work in a beneficial discussion if scientific methods and rational arguments are made rather than using logical fallacies and only touting our own opinion. It's best if we present valid arguments with research and documentation to back them up and address and counter (if necessary) the arguments posed against ours.
I still wish we could answer the question as to how harmful or stressful nitrite is to fish, but it seems to me from what I read that this is not one of the most important questions that beginners trying to understand cycling need to ask. Of course, longer cycle time before fish introduction seems to be always better to ensure complete nitrogen cycle.
This also brings to question, though, whether measurements of ammonia converting to nitrite and then to nitrate are enough for complete cycle indication. What about cases where the overall ammonia amount is not as high as the introduced fish/invertebrate/coral bioload and there is not enough bacteria to work fast enough to overcome the ammonia introduction rate? Maybe there is enough bacteria to make the conversion over a length of time, but it really seems like there needs to be a measure more relative to the intended bioload. Is this currently maintained by reaching certain levels of ammonia that are converted within a certain time-frame?
This is a fairly new hobby. People in the hobby are constantly learning new things. What I don't like about your argument is that you are just going by what other people have thought was true for awhile. Despite there not being any evidence backing that up in a reef aquarium. Just because it was the first theory, doesn't mean it was the correct one. There is now some evidence that says it may not be as harmful as we once thought and you are completely ignoring it
I haven't seen you post any evidence. You posted something from fritz saying it is harmful but where is their research? We have the research that suggests it isn't as harmful as we once thought, let's see the evidence that says it is. (evidence is not someone simply saying that it is harmful btw)
Duncan62
Valuable Member
When I started doing this in the 70s nobody dosed ammonia to cycle. It was either some cheap fish or the dieoff from live rock that started it. In these methods the ammonia reaches toxic levels for only a short time. Then nitrite and so on. It's a proven way to cycle and is done by thousands of people around the world.
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