Nitrite Toxicity

[Lasse]

I certainly have no problem with someone wanting to hedge all bets and minimize nitrite. Not adding a fish until it is gone is a fine plan. At worst, it is a waste of time and effort. For many folks, that's OK.

What I am not OK with is folks asserting, without evidence, that nitrite IS causing fish problems in ordinary reef aquaria, cycling or not.

I am perfectly happy with someone saying:

"I do not know if nitrite is a tox problem in cycling, but I want to minimize any concern so I am going to wait to add any fish until I cannot detect any nitrite".

And I´m totally unhappy with folks saying i nearly all threads about a new start.

Skip the concerns of nitrite toxicity - just stock the tank - your fully cycled

That´s because we does not know of all possible interactions that can happens and if there can be chronic or/and sublethal toxicity

I think @brandon429 has pointed out, we already do have many logged instances of people stocking fish in the presence of nitrite with no observed negative effects.

How do you know that - in most of these threads there have been no measuring of nitrite.

Nitrite measurements is - IMO - the most important measurement you can do in order to understand how well your nitrification process is going both in a start and in a mature reef. You are not only handling fish and corals - you are handling a whole ecosystem. Nitrite measurements is easy to do, even hobby sets give good readings and it is very few compounds that interfere with the result.

Direct from my head - I think LC50 for black tiger prawn was around 14. LC50 is used because there is so much genetic variation between individuals in the same species. From testing purpose is meaningless to know when the most sensitive individual die but for me it is important to know because I do not know the genetics of the actual fish that have traveled from the other side of the world to me in a plastic bag. Therefore - it is my duty to give this fish the best conditions for it to survive in my care. this means - fixing known possible negative factors before I get the fish in my water.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Duncan62]

Is it? If you want to conclude nitrite is an issue, you also need to monitor all other reasons fish die.

If I had said:

"Start your tank. Add delicate fish. Monitor fish and ammonia levels. Simple experiment"

Is that a simple experiment to prove ammonia is the issue? Why not? Because nitrite might be the cause?

By telling people to add fish irregardless of nitrite levels is just one more problem. Bad for the hobby. Setting people up to fail. Why not just do what we all know works. Nitrite rapidly fall to near 0. Add fish. It's not hard. Eliminating all sources of stress possible is all I'm advocating for. Increased chance of success.. Less mortality.

 

[Duncan62]

I do not know how toxic nitrite is to any fish not listed in my article. Either, I think, do you.

It was a legit question. I hoped you would know. Butterflyfish are delicate. If I knew their threshold I wouldn't ask. Don't you wonder about reef fish that people ate interested in? I do. Common eels are a staple of the reef tank. Butterfly is. Assemble some data on the hard to keep fish. It would be interesting. I'm not trying to say your wrong. I do feel based on experience, not only mine, that high nitrite in a new tank contributes to mortality rate.

 

[Duncan62]

And I´m totally unhappy with folks saying i nearly all threads about a new start.

That´s because we does not know of all possible interactions that can happens and if there can be chronic or/and sublethal toxicity


How do you know that - in most of these threads there have been no measuring of nitrite.

Nitrite measurements is - IMO - the most important measurement you can do in order to understand how well your nitrification process is going both in a start and in a mature reef. You are not only handling fish and corals - you are handling a whole ecosystem. Nitrite measurements is easy to do, even hobby sets give good readings and it is very few compounds that interfere with the result.

Direct from my head - I think LC50 for black tiger prawn was around 14. LC50 is used because there is so much genetic variation between individuals in the same species. From testing purpose is meaningless to know when the most sensitive individual die but for me it is important to know because I do not know the genetics of the actual fish that have traveled from the other side of the world to me in a plastic bag. Therefore - it is my duty to give this fish the best conditions for it to survive in my care. this means - fixing known possible negative factors before I get the fish in my water.

Sincerely Lasse

So right. Genetics determine most things. Including nitrite toxicity tolerance. But we all know without dna that some fish are more vulnerable.

 

[Duncan62]

So right. Genetics determine most things. Including nitrite toxicity tolerance. But we all know without dna that some fish are more vulnerable.

When I look at my tanks it's all the validation I need to know my method works. No chemist required.

 

[keithw283]

It was a legit question. I hoped you would know. Butterflyfish are delicate. If I knew their threshold I wouldn't ask. Don't you wonder about reef fish that people ate interested in? I do. Common eels are a staple of the reef tank. Butterfly is. Assemble some data on the hard to keep fish. It would be interesting. I'm not trying to say your wrong. I do feel based on experience, not only mine, that high nitrite in a new tank contributes to mortality rate.

My first tank I waited for the entire nitrogen cycle to complete. I have started 3 or 4 tanks since then and countless QT tanks and added fish as soon as ammonia spiked and then dropped to 0. Never tested nitrites in any of those tanks and didn't have a single fish die during that process.

 

[Harold999]

With nitrite in your tank your nitrate readings will be false, for me reason enough to wait with adding lifestock untill nitrite is zero. I want to know how high nitrates are, not guessing or estimating.

Many people still don't know that nitrites will screw your nitrate testing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

That´s because we does not know of all possible interactions that can happens and if there can be chronic or/and sublethal toxicity

That is certainly true.

I would point out that nitrite in a new aquarium is not typically chronically elevated, so its more of a nonchronic concern.

I think it boils down to the risk tolerance folks have.

Some climb cliffs without any ropes.
Some look both ways before crossing the street
Some never leave home for fear of accidents.

I put myself in the middle, and nitrite is not among the things I worry about for an existing reef tank. For a cycling tank I might measure it for fun. Would I add a fish to a new tank still with 1 ppm nitrite? Probably, assuming everything else checked out, but in general I would not be in a rush to add fish and nitrite probably wouldn't be elevated in a tank I'd set up anyway.

 

[Duncan62]

My first tank I waited for the entire nitrogen cycle to complete. I have started 3 or 4 tanks since then and countless QT tanks and added fish as soon as ammonia spiked and then dropped to 0. Never tested nitrites in any of those tanks and didn't have a single fish die during that process.

I've never lost fish because I use damsels to cycle. Hard to kill. I'm curious about adding corals and delicates to a system still mid cycle.

 

[Duncan62]

And I´m totally unhappy with folks saying i nearly all threads about a new start.

That´s because we does not know of all possible interactions that can happens and if there can be chronic or/and sublethal toxicity


How do you know that - in most of these threads there have been no measuring of nitrite.

Nitrite measurements is - IMO - the most important measurement you can do in order to understand how well your nitrification process is going both in a start and in a mature reef. You are not only handling fish and corals - you are handling a whole ecosystem. Nitrite measurements is easy to do, even hobby sets give good readings and it is very few compounds that interfere with the result.

Direct from my head - I think LC50 for black tiger prawn was around 14. LC50 is used because there is so much genetic variation between individuals in the same species. From testing purpose is meaningless to know when the most sensitive individual die but for me it is important to know because I do not know the genetics of the actual fish that have traveled from the other side of the world to me in a plastic bag. Therefore - it is my duty to give this fish the best conditions for it to survive in my care. this means - fixing known possible negative factors before I get the fish in my water.

Sincerely Lasse

I'd bet your animals are

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

When I look at my tanks it's all the validation I need to know my method works. No chemist required.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, no one is saying that monitoring nitrite "doesn't work".

The issue is whether it is useful or necessary. Your experience cannot answer that question.

 

[keithw283]

I've never lost fish because I use damsels to cycle. Hard to kill. I'm curious about adding corals and delicates to a system still mid cycle.

I also typically use hardier fish as my first ones. Typically I use clowns or a group of chromis but my most recent tank was a foxface along with 2 clowns. Never put corals in mid cycle but I was reading a thread on here a couple weeks ago where people were saying they cycled their tanks with corals. Don't quote me on that because I'm not 100% sure but I'm pretty sure they were adding them mid cycle. Maybe someone can chime in on that.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It was a legit question. I hoped you would know. Butterflyfish are delicate. If I knew their threshold I wouldn't ask. Don't you wonder about reef fish that people ate interested in? I do. Common eels are a staple of the reef tank. Butterfly is. Assemble some data on the hard to keep fish. It would be interesting. I'm not trying to say your wrong. I do feel based on experience, not only mine, that high nitrite in a new tank contributes to mortality rate.

For my nitrite article, I assembled all of the data I could find at the time for every possible marine species (fish, invert, etc.).

There certainly may be more generated and published data since then, but such studies are complicated, expensive, and have ethical issues. I do not suspect it is on any researchers or funding agency radar to repeat already published studies on more organisms unless they are of substantial dollar interest (such as in aquaculture).

 

[Cell]

When I look at my tanks it's all the validation I need to know my method works. No chemist required.

Agreed. But stop there. Your success does not mean other methods do not work.

 

[Cell]

I've never lost fish because I use damsels to cycle. Hard to kill. I'm curious about adding corals and delicates to a system still mid cycle.

Wait, what? You use damsels to cycle yet are dying on the nitrite is harmful hill?

 

[Duncan62]

And I´m totally unhappy with folks saying i nearly all threads about a new start.

That´s because we does not know of all possible interactions that can happens and if there can be chronic or/and sublethal toxicity


How do you know that - in most of these threads there have been no measuring of nitrite.

Nitrite measurements is - IMO - the most important measurement you can do in order to understand how well your nitrification process is going both in a start and in a mature reef. You are not only handling fish and corals - you are handling a whole ecosystem. Nitrite measurements is easy to do, even hobby sets give good readings and it is very few compounds that interfere with the result.

Direct from my head - I think LC50 for black tiger prawn was around 14. LC50 is used because there is so much genetic variation between individuals in the same species. From testing purpose is meaningless to know when the most sensitive individual die but for me it is important to know because I do not know the genetics of the actual fish that have traveled from the other side of the world to me in a plastic bag. Therefore - it is my duty to give this fish the best conditions for it to survive in my care. this means - fixing known possible negative factors before I get the fish in my water.

Sincerely Lasse

Wait, what? You use damsels to cycle yet are dying on the nitrite is harmful hill?

No. I'm just saying don't put delicates in first. Why risk it? That's why damsels. They can take it better. I'm not dying on this hill. All I'm saying is why take the risk when a little more time is all it takes. I've agreed repeatedly it's not the only bad thing in a new tank. How about you guys bathe your fish and corals in nitrite and I'll provide a clean stable environment before corals and expensive fish. Everyone is correct but me but every animal in my tank is happy. All the time. Good enough for me.

 

[Duncan62]

I certainly have no problem with someone wanting to hedge all bets and minimize nitrite. Not adding a fish until it is gone is a fine plan. At worst, it is a waste of time and effort. For many folks, that's OK.

What I am not OK with is folks asserting, without evidence, that nitrite IS causing fish problems in ordinary reef aquaria, cycling or not.

I am perfectly happy with someone saying:

"I do not know if nitrite is a tox problem in cycling, but I want to minimize any concern so I am going to wait to add any fish until I cannot detect any nitrite".

 

[Duncan62]

I certainly have no problem with someone wanting to hedge all bets and minimize nitrite. Not adding a fish until it is gone is a fine plan. At worst, it is a waste of time and effort. For many folks, that's OK.

What I am not OK with is folks asserting, without evidence, that nitrite IS causing fish problems in ordinary reef aquaria, cycling or not.

I am perfectly happy with someone saying:

"I do not know if nitrite is a tox problem in cycling, but I want to minimize any concern so I am going to wait to add any fish until I cannot detect any nitrite".

I'm sure going to always hedge my bet when a beautiful delicate creature is at stake. I hope anyone who is willing to take a animal into captivity would do their best for it. Fish, eel, turtle. All should be treated with the best care possible.

 

[Cell]

I'm sure going to always hedge my bet when a beautiful delicate creature is at stake. I hope anyone who is willing to take a animal into captivity would do their best for it. Fish, eel, turtle. All should be treated with the best care possible.

Except damsels, I guess.

 

[Duncan62]

Except damsels, I guess.

Actually lots of them. They freak out a bit but always make it. Feel better now. You guys just aren't very nice. A bunch of know it all who won't hear anything except yourselves. Except Lasse. I'd bet your a real dick. So brave when typing.