Nitrite Toxicity

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I think we actually agree. Once a tank runs in you should never need that test kit again. But. Lol. A well balanced system should never approach toxic levels. But ....... I've demonstrated my approach to reefing for almost 50 years. Never a mass die off. Most animals are traded in after outgrowing my tanks. My stuff lives and flourishes. Proof enough for me. It's bee a fun discussion. Thanks.

I do not see how even perfect success when worrying about nitrite says what would have happened if you had not worried about or acted in relation to nitrite.

 

[Duncan62]

Another assertion without any evidence. Do you have any evidence that the levels that might be attained in a reef tank (say, 1-2 ppm) are stressful to anything we keep?

I would say the anecdotal evidence of people on this forum having mass death when adding animals to early are pretty good evidence. Real world results are just as valuable evidence as any. If nitrite was good the ocean would be 200ppm. But is not. Wild caught animals are stressed by nitrite. I'd like for you to prove to me a copperband can live in those conditions. Dose notice up to those levels and see what happens.

 

[Duncan62]

I do not see how even perfect success when worrying about nitrite says what would have happened if you had not worried about or acted in relation to nitrite.

 

[Duncan62]

As stated earlier I've never worried about it. Test. When it drops ad fish. Repeat. You should start a new trend call high nitrite reef keeping.

 

[Duncan62]

As stated earlier I've never worried about it. Test. When it drops ad fish. Repeat. You should start a new trend call high nitrite reef keeping.

One last point. Perfect success is the ultimate test. You should try it for the next 40 years. Good luck.

 

[brandon429]

‘I would say the anecdotal evidence of people on this forum having mass death when adding animals to early are pretty good evidence.’


that hasn’t occurred. Post links you see of one event

hyperbole replaces readable links



This thread is used to manage hundreds of cycles we can link that show patterned happy outcomes. We can inspect claims made here, we can’t inspect your claims at all.

 

[Duncan62]

I thought this was a reef forum?? Not a chemistry test. I don't need this to enjoy my tanks. Thought ot would be fun but I forgot there's always one condescending person in every crowd. Best wishes.

 

[brandon429]

before you go, can you back up the claim about mass loss here

set in the link so we can read it


wanted to see if anything typed can be shown independently, not relayed or summarized by you but linked then we will read and assess relevancy

if after this many direct requests for links we don’t get any I understand. Still wanted to request some if possible


if there are nitrite losses in reefing you know of I legit want to see them so that we can have another reference to consult.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I thought this was a reef forum?? Not a chemistry test. I don't need this to enjoy my tanks. Thought ot would be fun but I forgot there's always one condescending person in every crowd. Best wishes.

Actually, you are in the chemistry forum that I run. My mission here is to ensure that any chemistry discussed is as accurate as possible. Dissenting opinions are certainly welcome, and are often expressed on controversial issues, but I will always challenge anything that I think needs it to ensure no one reads misinformation without knowing there are opposing expert viewpoints.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One last point. Perfect success is the ultimate test. You should try it for the next 40 years. Good luck.

You mistakenly think I'm new to reefkeeping?

I was moderating reef chemistry forums as far back as Compuserve Fishnet.

 

[NeonRabbit221B]

I love this.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

As stated earlier I've never worried about it. Test. When it drops ad fish. Repeat. You should start a new trend call high nitrite reef keeping.

Well, we did start (or at least encourage) ammonia dosing, so I guess nitrite dosing is a possible new frontier. Chemicals do not scare us. They are tools that we bend to our will.

Does anyone dose ammonia and/or how would one try?

So, after an interesting discussion on nitrate dosing and looking at my Walt Disney coral and seeing it slightly less colorful than I have seen it in others tanks, I have decided I want to learn about and then try dosing ammonia instead of buying 20 damsels. Nitrate additives I see abound and...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[brandon429]

I’m a little disappointed Duncan that this heated/brief challenge time wasn’t used to introduce something new, an angle not seen before on tangible reefs vs just kickback from having paradigms tested. This has been such a helpful / nice paced reference thread this last year until today but it’ll recover.


nitrite testing and challenge on claims has a right to present agreed but I wanted something reflecting direct study on nitrite in some way

the trend we can see, on any forum at any trade show is reefs get started quicker than we did thirty years ago. Bacteria sellers tout the quick cycle, we test angles on these trends, try to verify their claims and build up valuable links you’d ask to see if were on the same side of sheer interest in how the science is changing.

 

[brandon429]

nitrite is moving bottle bac sales at a tremendous rate. if we dont need to be testing for nitrite, a huge wing of the market is fake

this is fascinating to study and also rib the sellers daily with for about seven years in jest of course.

I'm not saying whether its good or bad for a given bottle bac seller to rake in about four hundred thousand dollars a year in reactive purchases, after ammonia control has been established and in complete reaction to solely nitrite, I'm saying I want to know if that's a legit needs based market


or is it peer driven flub market.

and can we even test for it correctly, or am I getting mis testing as a factor and thats not being told either. we deserve to know.

using bottle bac for the initial dry start cycle is fine, it drives a large portion of the legit sales market. their ability to control ammonia out of the bottle has helped aquarists

 

[Jay Hemdal]

You mistakenly think I'm new to reefkeeping?

I was moderating reef chemistry forums as far back as Compuserve Fishnet.

I was an assistant forum moderator on FISHNET, I think I did disease "fish calls" back then as well. I'm still on Facebook with Debbie Kitchin and John Kuhns, John Benn passed away, didn't he?

Jay

 

[Lasse]

I'm relying on tests to say something is toxic or not.

The normal way to test toxicity is to test acute toxicity with help of LC50 test. In short - you measure the concentration ther 50 % of the tested animals is dead after a certain time - normally LC48 and LC96. The test says nothing about which level the first organism of the test sample die - and not when the last die either. If LC50 (96 H) of a certain compound is a concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm) - the only sure answer you get is at that concentration 50 % of the tested organism is dead. As I said before - it say nothing about at which level the first organism die. It is true that LC50xx is very high for most saltwater species - we do not have the hell every freshwater aquarist have with dead fish

However - IMO - LC50 is a very blunt tool in order to evaluate a compounds real toxicity - namely it will not show any sublethal toxicity. Already back in the early 80:ties scientists who worked with ecotoxicology start to focus more on sublethal toxicity than LC50 when they talk about different compounds toxic effects in the ecosystem.

As I know - there is no scientific sublethal tests done for nitrite either in salt or fresh water - if it is please let me know.
I can´t say if nitrite is give sublethal damage to salt water fish or not. But knowing of the complex chemistry in saltwater I do not dare to stock an aquarium with living organisms in an aquarium with high levels of nitrite and will either not encourage someone to do it.

With the methods now in use - start aquarium with high doses of NH3/NH4 and dose this for more than once - it is not unlike with very high nitrite levels after a couple of days. Remember - for every 1 ppm NH4 you put in - you will have around 2.5 ppm NO2 in a new aquarium (no uptake of different organisms) if it not goes directly to nitrate. And it does not - even if people report high NO3 concentrations after a couple of days - it is only the reflection of the NO2 interference on the NO3 measure. if you have add 5 ppm (as I have seen) - we are talking about 12.5 ppm NO2 in worst case

If you use a start methode where you add very, very low amounts of NH3/NH4 a day (a fish that you feed like I describe in my 15 steps or chemical NH4 ), seed with nitrification bacteria, maybe traces of NO3 and PO4 - you never need to worry even to measure anything - the nitrification cycle will start very smooth and not hang at the second step - IME

I can´t speak about my service in different Bulletin Boards because when I did my first experiences with nitrification, fish disease and keep fishes in glass bowls there was not even any BB:s whatever. When I start to handle nitrification in my professional work - I had to learn this the hard way and through scientific literature - a PC was just a dream and we could not spell to Bulletin Board

I Europe - it is more common to measure NO2, especially in the start. This has lead too that we now know which concentrations of nitrite that´s is common in most reefs. The normal values are around 0.02 - 0,05. This measurements have been done by professional measurements by companies like Oceamo.

I can´t understand why handling nitrification in a proper way make some upset . it is not rocket science to start an aquarium the right way. There is so many parameters that we can´t control - why should we avoid to control the one that we can?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[brandon429]

Readers

You need to know using this thread we have setup approximately 1000 cycles before the opposing crew showed up today...and they're all tracking wonderfully, if you want proof then send me a private message and you wont leave unconvinced. You have a way to contact any of the logged nitrite-positive started cycles right now, to ask that owner how things turned out when ignoring nitrite 100% in display tank reefing. I'll connect you right to our most recent work examples from inbox, instead of relying on large paragraphs to make a point you can get input from participants as side chats. report back here findings.

tracking nitrite oxidation to learn about its dynamics, using tested and proven digital gear, is fascinating science. its learning the puzzle pieces to oxidation, its a legit study.


but factoring nitrite in your cycle, or your display, using api, and then considering even for one second your filter must be broken, is a crime. nitrite is neutral in cycling... neutral in display tank reefing every cycle I've ever worked says that's the case. its one less misread to cause you to dose prime, then immediately get a raised ammonia reading caused by prime, which then propels you to buy bottled bacteria 4 more times for the cycle which was already o.k.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The normal way to test toxicity is to test acute toxicity with help of LC50 test. In short - you measure the concentration ther 50 % of the tested animals is dead after a certain time - normally LC48 and LC96. The test says nothing about which level the first organism of the test sample die - and not when the last die either. If LC50 (96 H) of a certain compound is a concentration of 2 mg/L (ppm) - the only sure answer you get is at that concentration 50 % of the tested organism is dead. As I said before - it say nothing about at which level the first organism die. It is true that LC50xx is very high for most saltwater species - we do not have the hell every freshwater aquarist have with dead fish

However - IMO - LC50 is a very blunt tool in order to evaluate a compounds real toxicity - namely it will not show any sublethal toxicity. Already back in the early 80:ties scientists who worked with ecotoxicology start to focus more on sublethal toxicity than LC50 when they talk about different compounds toxic effects in the ecosystem.

As I know - there is no scientific sublethal tests done for nitrite either in salt or fresh water - if it is please let me know.
I can´t say if nitrite is give sublethal damage to salt water fish or not. But knowing of the complex chemistry in saltwater I do not dare to stock an aquarium with living organisms in an aquarium with high levels of nitrite and will either not encourage someone to do it.

With the methods now in use - start aquarium with high doses of NH3/NH4 and dose this for more than once - it is not unlike with very high nitrite levels after a couple of days. Remember - for every 1 ppm NH4 you put in - you will have around 2.5 ppm NO2 in a new aquarium (no uptake of different organisms) if it not goes directly to nitrate. And it does not - even if people report high NO3 concentrations after a couple of days - it is only the reflection of the NO2 interference on the NO3 measure. if you have add 5 ppm (as I have seen) - we are talking about 12.5 ppm NO2 in worst case

If you use a start methode where you add very, very low amounts of NH3/NH4 a day (a fish that you feed like I describe in my 15 steps or chemical NH4 ), seed with nitrification bacteria, maybe traces of NO3 and PO4 - you never need to worry even to measure anything - the nitrification cycle will start very smooth and not hang at the second step - IME

I can´t speak about my service in different Bulletin Boards because when I did my first experiences with nitrification, fish disease and keep fishes in glass bowls there was not even any BB:s whatever. When I start to handle nitrification in my professional work - I had to learn this the hard way and through scientific literature - a PC was just a dream and we could not spell to Bulletin Board

I Europe - it is more common to measure NO2, especially in the start. This has lead too that we now know which concentrations of nitrite that´s is common in most reefs. The normal values are around 0.02 - 0,05. This measurements have been done by professional measurements by companies like Oceamo.

I can´t understand why handling nitrification in a proper way make some upset . it is not rocket science to start an aquarium the right way. There is so many parameters that we can´t control - why should we avoid to control the one that we can?

Sincerely Lasse

Lasse - check out Noga 2010, pages 96-98. It gives full reference to the complete lack of toxicity of nitrite in marine fishes. Saying that the 96 hour LC50 is a blunt tool may be correct, but then, to say there is instead, some subacute toxicity, well that requires references, and I've never seen any. What I do have is 55 years of empirical knowledge that I have never had nitrite become toxic for any marine fish, ever. Freshwater fish - yes, consistently. Marine invertebrates? I withhold any conclusions because as a rule, I don't expose invertebrates to nitrite, and some have hemoglobin and some don't.

Jay

 

[Duncan62]

You mistakenly think I'm new to reefkeeping?

I was moderating reef chemistry forums as far back as Compuserve Fishnet.

No idont think your new. You have a fabulous education and I'm sure you have many tanks that are fabulous. You are a person of influence and to say people have never lost fish to nitrite stress is just not true. I read 4 discussions that were a wondering why their fish suffered when first added. Even your article states over .2ppm causes stress. I think you should get off your academic horse and walk with the regular people. You know. The ones you feel superior too. Use your knowledge to help not just to use research gathered from all over the world by others to prove a useless point about your theories that ultra high nitrite is harmless. Forget this forum. You've never in your illustrious life know people who unwittingly lost fish boarding to early? You being a person of huge importance might help a beginning reefer. The last thing a new person needs all that garbage. Just being g nice might help

 

[Duncan62]

‘I would say the anecdotal evidence of people on this forum having mass death when adding animals to early are pretty good evidence.’


that hasn’t occurred. Post links you see of one event

hyperbole replaces readable links



This thread is used to manage hundreds of cycles we can link that show patterned happy outcomes. We can inspect claims made here, we can’t inspect your claims at all.

The guy with the dieing copperband. The guy with dead clowns. Lots of people kill fish here by adding while nitrite is still high. Lots. BTW. You chemistry discussion butted in. Not the other way around. This is not fun. Following a PhD who probably can't change a tire. Common knowledge Aries to all things. Even fish.