Not all Cycling Bacteria are created equal. Who's who, and what do they need?

[Dan_P]

Here's an update on this - filling n the picture for my bottle of One and Only...



Ammonia decrease and NO2 production for One and Only eventually did ramp up, slowly.

Now, it's apparently joined MB Start XLM in the category of building up a bunch of NO2 and it sticking around without any noticeable activity by nitrite oxidizers. Not that people care about a bunch of NO2, I just think it's interesting because I did not expect the NO2 oxidizers to be a difference between these products.

Was my bottle representative? Can't say. But it's not the first "slow" bottle of O&O that we've seen.

Who knows what’s going on with Dr Tim’s. No more apologies about buying a bad bottle to excuse the crappy performance of Dr. Tim’s, well, at least in my universe

I believe he worked for or with Instant Ocean and was behind the BioSpira product which is fantastic. Fritz Turbo Start is also pretty hot.

I am wondering if we are at the point where we try to figure out what it takes to kick Dr Tim’s into action more reliably. Clearly it is a good product but start up time is still too iffy.

Thanks for the update.

 

[taricha]

I believe he worked for or with Instant Ocean and was behind the BioSpira product which is fantastic. Fritz Turbo Start is also pretty hot.

I am wondering if we are at the point where we try to figure out what it takes to kick Dr Tim’s into action more reliably. Clearly it is a good product but start up time is still too iffy.

I was going to suggest this at some point, but you set it up for me perfectly. So here's my favorite speculation.
Many people have correctly noted that Dr Tim's ammonia - new formula - when used following the directions causes a large overdose of ammonia.
Which do we think is likelier, that they re-did the concentration of the ammonia product and just badly calculated it and causes an unintentional overdose?
Or that maybe the new formula causes a very intentional overdose because Dr Tim saw that his product activated faster and the population expanded more quickly with an initial high Ammonia load, and tweaked the dose accordingly?

(Counterpoint: so far, every single time I've assumed that some weirdness in manufacturer product is actually intentional to make it work better - I've found out later I was wrong and things are just sloppy. )

 

[taricha]

Yeah, one thing that is hard to say is if things that did not work (or work slowly) is so because that's just the product, or if it is a dud bottle. After all, we are talking about living organisms, so they are susceptible to, well, death, lol.

Potential Side-trip: "dud"-ify some good bottles.
Take a biospira confirmed to work and leave it in the trunk of my car for a couple of days that will reach ~100F.
Take another and freeze it for a day or two.

Do either of those cause catastrophic loss of function (99+% activity drop) - or is this shipping excuse for dud bottles just an unjustified free pass?

My presumption is that freeze is a hard kill, but heat is just a modest loss of activity. (there's probably some papers that would save me the trouble of this side trip)

 

[Garf]

I was going to suggest this at some point, but you set it up for me perfectly. So here's my favorite speculation.
Many people have correctly noted that Dr Tim's ammonia - new formula - when used following the directions causes a large overdose of ammonia.
Which do we think is likelier, that they re-did the concentration of the ammonia product and just badly calculated it and causes an unintentional overdose?
Or that maybe the new formula causes a very intentional overdose because Dr Tim saw that his product replicated faster and the population expanded more quickly with an initial high Ammonia load, and tweaked the dose accordingly?

(Counterpoint: so far, every single time I've assumed that some weirdness in manufacturer product is actually intentional to make it work better - I've found out later I was wrong and things are just sloppy. )

I’m assuming everyone who has used a syringe to dispense the ammonia has been ok though, just a mess up with the dropper bottle lids perhaps. Mine is new one, but mine worked out ok. Maybe some folk are using the teaspoon, tablespoon conversion.

 

[taricha]

I’m assuming everyone who has used a syringe to dispense the ammonia has been ok though, just a mess up with the dropper bottle lids perhaps

hmmmm that's also persuasive. Sloppiness may win yet again.

 

[Dan_P]

I was going to suggest this at some point, but you set it up for me perfectly. So here's my favorite speculation.
Many people have correctly noted that Dr Tim's ammonia - new formula - when used following the directions causes a large overdose of ammonia.
Which do we think is likelier, that they re-did the concentration of the ammonia product and just badly calculated it and causes an unintentional overdose?
Or that maybe the new formula causes a very intentional overdose because Dr Tim saw that his product activated faster and the population expanded more quickly with an initial high Ammonia load, and tweaked the dose accordingly?

(Counterpoint: so far, every single time I've assumed that some weirdness in manufacturer product is actually intentional to make it work better - I've found out later I was wrong and things are just sloppy. )

Understanding what product manufacturers are up to might even be difficult for AI.

 

[MnFish1]

In a month that much would theoretically be 210ppm nitrate, wouldn’t it? That’s a lot isn’t it, lol

Not sure what you mean - in relation to my comment.

Potential Side-trip: "dud"-ify some good bottles.
Take a biospira confirmed to work and leave it in the trunk of my car for a couple of days that will reach ~100F.
Take another and freeze it for a day or two.

Do either of those cause catastrophic loss of function (99+% activity drop) - or is this shipping excuse for dud bottles just an unjustified free pass?

My presumption is that freeze is a hard kill, but heat is just a modest loss of activity. (there's probably some papers that would save me the trouble of this side trip)

Freezing does not automatically kill bacteria - however repeated freeze thaw cycles can significantly reduce function. Think of all the frozen lakes in Lasse's Sweden

 

[MnFish1]

I’m assuming everyone who has used a syringe to dispense the ammonia has been ok though, just a mess up with the dropper bottle lids perhaps. Mine is new one, but mine worked out ok. Maybe some folk are using the teaspoon, tablespoon conversion.

The amount thats dispensed seemed to be individual bottle related - when I did my experiments a while back - the recommended number of drops gave between 6 and 8 ppm. The syringe was always right on

 

[Azedenkae]

Potential Side-trip: "dud"-ify some good bottles.
Take a biospira confirmed to work and leave it in the trunk of my car for a couple of days that will reach ~100F.
Take another and freeze it for a day or two.

Do either of those cause catastrophic loss of function (99+% activity drop) - or is this shipping excuse for dud bottles just an unjustified free pass?

My presumption is that freeze is a hard kill, but heat is just a modest loss of activity. (there's probably some papers that would save me the trouble of this side trip)

Hahahahaha would be good to know.

Yeah I am sure there are some papers out there... maybe I'll try to find something in the next few days and see.

 

[MnFish1]

Hahahahaha would be good to know.

Yeah I am sure there are some papers out there... maybe I'll try to find something in the next few days and see.

There are plenty of opinions out there that state that certain strains of nitrosomonas and others die at 32 degrees (some are more tolerant). However, heterotrophs (that also utilize ammonia are not necessarily killed by freezing - and I have no idea what happens to archaea which are thought to be more and more important in the nitrogen cycle than previously thought

 

[Azedenkae]

I do have a request for you @taricha, when you test FritzZyme TurboStart 900. Could you test FritzZyme 9 concurrently, but at 15x concentration?

Fritz 900 says it is basically Fritz 9, but 15x more concentrated, but the preference for it to be stored refrigerated throws me off. I have a bit of a theory as to the refrigeration thing - possibly something to do with just slowing down metabolism versus actual dormancy, but am not quite sure. Would be cool to see how the apparent same concentration of nitrifiers from Fritz 900 and Fritz 9 compare against each other.

 

[MnFish1]

I do have a request for you @taricha, when you test FritzZyme TurboStart 900. Could you test FritzZyme 9 concurrently, but at 15x concentration?

Fritz 900 says it is basically Fritz 9, but 15x more concentrated, but the preference for it to be stored refrigerated throws me off. I have a bit of a theory as to the refrigeration thing - possibly something to do with just slowing down metabolism versus actual dormancy, but am not quite sure. Would be cool to see how the apparent same concentration of nitrifiers from Fritz 900 and Fritz 9 compare against each other.

IMHO - this is not reasonable. Of course it can be done - I would do 3 experiments - 1. The recommendations of the manufacturer, I would not concentrate the stuff - as there is no evidence that you can do a 15x concentration. Third - re-think the entire comment

 

[Azedenkae]

IMHO - this is not reasonable. Of course it can be done - I would do 3 experiments - 1. The recommendations of the manufacturer, I would not concentrate the stuff - as there is no evidence that you can do a 15x concentration. Third - re-think the entire comment

I mean, I understand the point of following recommendations by the manufacturer as you have made abundantly clear through your posts, but I don't really think that's the point right now.

There isn't really a reason why one can't do 15x the amount of Fritz 9 as Fritz 900, not to mention this is pretty close to what Fritz recommends anyways - 4oz per 5 gallons (20oz per 25 gallons) for Fritz 9 or 1oz per 25 gallons for Fritz 900, so a 20:1 ratio, not quite a 15:1 ratio, but yeah.

 

[MnFish1]

I mean, I understand the point of following recommendations by the manufacturer as you have made abundantly clear through your posts, but I don't really think that's the point right now.

There isn't really a reason why one can't do 15x the amount of Fritz 9 as Fritz 900, not to mention this is pretty close to what Fritz recommends anyways - 4oz per 5 gallons (20oz per 25 gallons) for Fritz 9 or 1oz per 25 gallons for Fritz 900, so a 20:1 ratio, not quite a 15:1 ratio, but yeah.

Its exactly the point -however - I misunderstood what you were saying - when you said 'concentrate' the Fritz 9 - I didn't see what you meant - you meant using 15 x the recommended amount. As compared to trying to concentrate the original solution. Either way - who cares? No offense. Just use the product the way it's designed to be used - via the instructions. No one is going out multiply the amount of Fritz 9 - to get to 9000. the point (to me) - is does fritz 9 - as it is, outcompete Fritz 9000. IMHO - many of these experiments are using multiples of the amounts recommended by the manufacturer.

 

[Malcontent]

Recent study on bottled bacteria:

Efficacy of quick-start nitrifying products in controlled fresh-water aquaria

Quick-start nitrifying products (QSNP) are sold to aquarium hobbyists with the claim that the nitrogen cycle is rapidly initiated allowing for instant…

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[MnFish1]

Recent study on bottled bacteria:

Efficacy of quick-start nitrifying products in controlled fresh-water aquaria

Quick-start nitrifying products (QSNP) are sold to aquarium hobbyists with the claim that the nitrogen cycle is rapidly initiated allowing for instant…

www.sciencedirect.com

Great article - It's interesting - and also shows a controlled way to do this type of study. As discussed already - it all depends on 1. following the directions and 2. following the directions. If it's snake oil it will not work. Its unclear from the conclusions that bacterial additions do not work, etc - it would have also been very nice to see an analysis of bacterial products (DNA-wise)

 

[Azedenkae]

Either way - who cares? No offense.

Well, I care. Perhaps not so much in terms of practical impacts, since chances are I'd just use FritzZyme TurboStart 900 instead of FritzZyme 9 regardless, but in terms of better understanding the product, yeah I am super interested. Maybe it's just the scientist in me wanting to know the details.

But yeah, up to @taricha. If they care too, they can try the experimentation. If they don't, that's okay.

 

[MnFish1]

Well, I care. Perhaps not so much in terms of practical impacts, since chances are I'd just use FritzZyme TurboStart 900 instead of FritzZyme 9 regardless, but in terms of better understanding the product, yeah I am super interested. Maybe it's just the scientist in me wanting to know the details.

But yeah, up to @taricha. If they care too, they can try the experimentation. If they don't, that's okay.

I'm a scientist as well. IMHO - just multiplying the Fritz 9 by 15 is not an accurate way to do it for at least a couple reasons. And they are different products - used for different things right? My GUESS would be (though I think when @Dr. Reef was doing his experiments, Fritz explained the difference - which I don't remember) - that either they are different bacteria - or the lower concentration allows them to be stored differently.

EDIT - addition: When a person takes a product and dilutes it or concentrates it to 'prove something' - there are many possible points of error. In other words - there is no way to prove that Fritz 9 vs 900 works better or worse using this concentrating experiment IMHO.

 

[Dan_P]

Well, I care. Perhaps not so much in terms of practical impacts, since chances are I'd just use FritzZyme TurboStart 900 instead of FritzZyme 9 regardless, but in terms of better understanding the product, yeah I am super interested. Maybe it's just the scientist in me wanting to know the details.

But yeah, up to @taricha. If they care too, they can try the experimentation. If they don't, that's okay.

I agree it would be interesting (and very simple) to compare ammonia consumption (and nitrite consumption) of the two products at recommended concentrations, and as you suggested, at adjusted concentrations. Wouldn’t be the first time a vendor “invented” a new product by altering the concentration.

 

[Garf]

From Fritz; (Dr Reef thread);