Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread

[john.m.cole3]

Ok thanks. This is a new reefer with way too much money and not enough patience. But I know most of us fall in the latter category. BTW that dang anemone stung the blasto a little bit and I had to move him.

 

[Russ265]

i rinse with tap all the time.

if the sand looks like a cookies and cream consistency, it gets sucked out with the wc, rinsed and put back in.

i dont get blooms or ill effects

 

[shollis2814]

YMMV. Municipal water companies all treat their water differently. Here in Nashvegas, the phosphates coming out of the tap are incredibly high IME. I couldn't use tap at all when I did freshwater without major algal blooms. When I went to reef, I just decided to pony up the money to my LFS for water until I could afford a decent RODI unit.

 

[Russ265]

YMMV. Municipal water companies all treat their water differently. Here in Nashvegas, the phosphates coming out of the tap are incredibly high IME. I couldn't use tap at all when I did freshwater without major algal blooms. When I went to reef, I just decided to pony up the money to my LFS for water until I could afford a decent RODI unit.

this is very true. my water out of the tap is 42 TDS and is miniscule in everything.

if i lived in flint michigan i wouldnt be as trusting

 

[brandon429]

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/373707-operation-cyano-hows-this-plan-update/

Valid for our thread here due to:
-physical actions taken for the battle of cyano, not just chems or water dosers.
-bed has been worked clean enough to pass a drop test, but it was done via incremental cleaning not as a rip change. Export outpaced import, bed is clean, time was taken this is excellent mode.
-good progression of pics
-hard to know how much the mb7 bio assistant did the job, its known as a handy cyano helper. being able to pass a drop test, and then fixing up that live rock detritus testing shows required, certainly makes sure the tank isn't the culprit regarding the cyano.
-non recycled work, the cleaning did not cause a cycle.

*had this tank not had cyano challenges, im sure things would have just proceeded and for many that means years hands off, no bed problems.

but when it came time for action, we had cleaning options planned around bacteria, and recycling, and to be able to implement those cleanings reliably (no mini cycle or full cycle)



We can predict ahead of time when action X will cause a cycle, that used to be variable, and API readings helped to make that seem variable when it really wasn't.

Detritus causes recycling in tank cleanings, not loss of bac.

now we can get as light or as heavy into tank cleaning as we want, based on needs, and lose nothing. its not that every sandbed should be cleaned, its that when the need arises, this thread has mas examples.

 

[brandon429]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/remote-very-deep-sandbed.252602/#post-2980163


When *not* to rinse a sandbed, by design.

Any fair sandbed control thread needs example of planning that allows for the opposing method when it's this functional. I'm fully skeptical of claims about natural nitrate reduction, I think it doesn't occur in the typical reef arrangement to the point we can measure, as in live rock alone digesting nitrate (some accomplish it with more than average live rock in refugia, but that's rare, LR is usually a detritus sink in the typical reef tank like mine for example it must be cleaned)

But John M Cole had marine blocks, that's a special zone specifically designed for these elusives to colonize, I believe they work for sure.

Bio pellet users have nitrate get incorporated into mass with exported bacteria as a mode of NNR that doesn't involve gas liberation as N2 but it's still nitrate removal.


Wiz we can see has a planned sandbed whose cross section pic after years of running shows no need for invasion, and there are also no fish blasting waste into his sandbed...the remote dsb is an ideal way to employ one and add more diversity to watch and learn than any rinsed sandbed.


The reason we blast rinse most of the beds in this thread is only because they were the tank diaper sitting under a pile of untouched rocks. Don't need to rinse the remote one with only pod waste it'll run twenty years+ I bet.

 

[Russ265]

http://reef2reef.com/threads/remote-very-deep-sandbed.252602/#post-2980163


When *not* to rinse a sandbed, by design.

Any fair sandbed control thread needs example of planning that allows for the opposing method when it's this functional. I'm fully skeptical of claims about natural nitrate reduction, I think it doesn't occur in the typical reef arrangement to the point we can measure, as in live rock alone digesting nitrate.

But John M Cole had marine blocks, that's a special zone specifically designed for these elusives to colonize


Wiz has a real sandbed whose cross section pic after years of running shows no need for invasion, and there are also no fish blasting waste into his sandbed...the remote dsb is an ideal way to employ one and add more diversity to watch and learn than any rinsed sandbed


The reason we blast rinse most of the beds in this thread is only because the were the tank diaper.

long time ago i considered filling a remote 5 gallon bucket with sand to "do it's thing" and remove if shtf.

 

[john.m.cole3]

My marine pure block is maybe midway through it being established as an actual denitrator. It's been working for 3 months now and I think I have at least 3 more months to go before it is fully functioning. In the meanwhile I use aquaforest carbon dosing products to manage my nutrients along with sand siphoning and water changes. Nitrates are around 7 to 10 and phosphates stay at .03 with a bit of gfo in my reactor.

 

[john.m.cole3]

Skip ahead to 3:41 and Than talks about the importance of rinsing sand

 

[brandon429]

This thread about sand rinsing garnered six thousand views in three days, we kinda want it linked it seems to have slight momentum

http://reef2reef.com/threads/my-white-sand-method.252861/

It shows trends, changes, in reefing practice.

How many sage reefing books of the late nineties and early 00s advocated rip cleaning of beds? None. It was set and forget. Rinsers are rogues, tinkering with cycling and tank loss (claimed)

worms and pods were supposed to make any sandbed we made, regardless of tank bio loading, automatically digest all waste and poop rendering it harmless minerals at the base....with room for more, ad infinitum. So one million tankers did and still do that, and we have invented carbon dosing, ATS, and coil denitrators to compensate.

Even the Berliners said live rock alone was going to do that for us. The sandbed was supposed to be extra help to boot, not some liability that it one handful is disturbed the whole tank bears a brief ammonia and nitrite spike.

 

[brandon429]

John

Your video link is so relevant that ten seconds after beginning at 3:41 i began to search out the release date...it's literally spot on rinse wording, down with silt lol

Video apropos


He does a whole drop test underwater, with ten handfuls from a bucket that's visual gold. I think some worms might have been killed, uh oh

 

[john.m.cole3]

Just trying to help out brotha! renegades we must be to change the minds of the masses.

 

[jwarren220]

Brandon,
I wanted to reach out to you to confirm what looks like a recent Cyano (if not other) bacteria outbreak. From what I've read and understand about algae it doesn't seem to be that. This is a recently cycled tank that currently only has snails. I started with dry sand that I rinsed in RO water but did not blast. I did add my first fish 2wks ago (mimic tang) but recently removed it after as I noticed Ich symptoms. That was 3 days ago. At the same time I needed to fix my OF box so I removed the rocks, fish, and snails. Then fixed the box and rescaped and filled. Again currently only snails are in the tank.
Back to the outbreak. Started as small spots/patch. It appears to be maroon strands laying on top of gray patches and it some spots it's solid red patch. Tried removing with siphon only to come back. Been progressively spreading (only on sand) for about 2wks. Base on the pics and tank info below, I would love to know what you might recommend to combat this bacteria?
Thanks in advance!!

Tank Specs:
75g DT (internal OF 1500
25g sump
2x250 MH 4x65w PC
(PC-12p-11p) (MH-1p-9p)
Vertex 130 skimmer
(Berlin No fuge, 4x8Pur Block)
Dual Reactor (Only GFO, just put online 8/6)
RODC 5500
2x RW8 PH

 

[brandon429]

Thanks for posting! Your tank looks super clean, I think your new and bright lighting is helping that more than anything and the fact the tank is newer, and awaiting deposition of actively competing organisms against that (biofilms, coralline, corals, grazers) whether its cyano or the spirulina TW has idenitified that looks similar.
Neither requires specific ID to be beaten via hand cleaning but specific ID is fun biology because topically they do look similar.

The shot directly above this one is exactly natural, having some of the organism in balance like that is natural, to be free of it is the unnatural mode so its a challenge for us to get there sometimes. I can rip clean my tank anytime so its not battle for me, but for large tankers yes (a rip cleaning of the whole system really sustains invader removal, removal of the invader alone often requires more re work)

your invader area collects in the flow catch zone where light detritus winds up I bet... a little feed=a little organism to make use of the new substrate (feed is a substrate too)

even when my aged tank is hands off and a little dirty due to lax work, my cyano stays gone off rocks and sand, via repeated removal. Some will develop lightly on the glass to indicate need for a catch-up cleaning, but hand guiding is how I beat it out of my tank it took no dosers or nutrient chasing (easier said for smaller systems agreed)

that organism to-be-ID'd (cyano or spiru) has a specific set of animals that feed upon it in the wild, so its ability to make use of bright white lighting (bluer selects a little less invader growth but that may not be pleasing to everyones eye etc) or non grazing doesn't imply anything is wrong with your tank, you'll have to arm graze it until natural methods take over.

keep hand removing as part of tank maturation and guidance. it lessens over time, and I wouldn't dose anything to the water for it either although its harmless if you want to.

I noticed in your sandbed cross section its clean and not choked up with waste, the cyano tbd seems to simply be doing its thing in a maturing tank and going where flow permits

Among harmless cheats that work against that invader, UV correctly sized sure would, and you don't have to use it forever...it too can be a temp guide to lessen your work.

hand remove it well and drop that light intensity and photoperiod until corals command it

 

[twilliard]

Hi Brandon!
Well I have gone back to sand. I disliked it for many years back in 2008.
My sand is white now and I plan on keeping it that way
Here is my new 75g tank

It's cloudy as my pistol shrimp loves his new environment

 

[brandon429]

that is great looking for sure. my vase requires sand or the rocks will set too low outside the bulge area where they are magnified by being raised by the sand. My sand is not that clean now, but after I wash it in hot steaming tap water and peroxide it sure will be lol excellent pic above

 

[brandon429]

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/367533-24-gal-water-of-life-rip-clean-time/page-3

a tank cleaning/rip cleaning/sandbed access and sandbed changeout run is being applied there with great step by step pics

This was a nutrient caused cyano issue, and they've acted quickly enough such that GHA didn't set in. fixing the cyano here will be snap easy. That lysmata cleaner there is a good mine canary to test our process...nanos allow zero mistakes.

 

[jwarren220]

Thanks for posting! Your tank looks super clean, I think your new and bright lighting is helping that more than anything and the fact the tank is newer, and awaiting deposition of actively competing organisms against that (biofilms, coralline, corals, grazers) whether its cyano or the spirulina TW has idenitified that looks similar.
Neither requires specific ID to be beaten via hand cleaning but specific ID is fun biology because topically they do look similar.

The shot directly above this one is exactly natural, having some of the organism in balance like that is natural, to be free of it is the unnatural mode so its a challenge for us to get there sometimes. I can rip clean my tank anytime so its not battle for me, but for large tankers yes (a rip cleaning of the whole system really sustains invader removal, removal of the invader alone often requires more re work)

your invader area collects in the flow catch zone where light detritus winds up I bet... a little feed=a little organism to make use of the new substrate (feed is a substrate too)

even when my aged tank is hands off and a little dirty due to lax work, my cyano stays gone off rocks and sand, via repeated removal. Some will develop lightly on the glass to indicate need for a catch-up cleaning, but hand guiding is how I beat it out of my tank it took no dosers or nutrient chasing (easier said for smaller systems agreed)

that organism to-be-ID'd (cyano or spiru) has a specific set of animals that feed upon it in the wild, so its ability to make use of bright white lighting (bluer selects a little less invader growth but that may not be pleasing to everyones eye etc) or non grazing doesn't imply anything is wrong with your tank, you'll have to arm graze it until natural methods take over.

keep hand removing as part of tank maturation and guidance. it lessens over time, and I wouldn't dose anything to the water for it either although its harmless if you want to.

I noticed in your sandbed cross section its clean and not choked up with waste, the cyano tbd seems to simply be doing its thing in a maturing tank and going where flow permits

Among harmless cheats that work against that invader, UV correctly sized sure would, and you don't have to use it forever...it too can be a temp guide to lessen your work.

hand remove it well and drop that light intensity and photoperiod until corals command it

Brandon,
Many thanks for your quick response as it helped ease some tension and provide much need clarity. I will be testing the sample tonight to properly ID the invader.

I have since turned off the MH only running actinic for short periods. I don't have the capability to dim or lower intensity with these. I have also cut the feeding being that I removed the only fish. I will work to remove the TBD Cyano patches with regular water changes weekly. Should I increase the WC frequency until the bacteria lessens or balances out?

In the meantime would you suggest or support adding any additional CUC such as more snails, crabs, goby, SS starfish in addition the the hand removal?

Words cannot thank this forum and the folks in it enough!!

P.S. Thanks Twilliard for you collaborative help.

 

[brandon429]

its ok to change as much water as you want, that tank is large enough that the leftover reserves from any partial water change make the impacts very minimal across the board. if that water change volume is allowing you to hand remove those red areas per guidance and its removing more water than normal that's no harm. I assure you my reef aquarium gets the largest % water change more times and for more years than any tank on the forum (because its a very tiny reef and I do multiple 100% water changes routinely, the size makes this possible but it also demonstrates full tolerance across nonfish reef animals and you wont be draining your tank down all the way as a fish stress)

 

[melev]

I didn't read this entire thread, but I did post a video about rinsing sand recently. Would you like me to link it in this thread?