Old Tank Syndrome

[TherealplexiG]

@Lowell Lemon
Do you agree that in the case of Paul Glass tank gave an edge over acrylic if he had one?

 

[TherealplexiG]

Double post...

 

[meir]

Honestly I have no idea what I just read. All I know is it was funny so I kept reading. That's something to say since I never read post this long.

But I would've liked an explanation why a DSB was a bad idea? Or if the whole article is about bacteria then maybe it was sarcasm saying it was a good idea?

Then u haven't been on Paul's threads long enough[emoji849][emoji849][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Pola0502ds]

Anyone have a link to the device he said he uses to target feed and sometimes uses to dust off the rocks? Those look a lot better than what I use and they are angled on the end. I would like to get some.

 

[Paul B]

Anyone have a link to the device he said he uses to target feed and sometimes uses to dust off the rocks? Those look a lot better than what I use and they are angled on the end. I would like to get some.

Google "Marine Depot" and search for coral feeders.
There's a link right on Reef2Reef here https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/10-off-aquamaxx-onpoint-coral-feeder.164297/

I have a glass tank for a couple of reasons. My glass tank is pretty well scratched, can you imagine a plastic tank 45 years old. It would be so scratched It would be like looking through sheet metal that an Emu made a nest on.

 

[Pola0502ds]

Thanks paul, you have a nice collection of them. Why so many?

With a 45 year old tank, any original coral? Dare i say fish?

 

[Paul B]

Thanks paul, you have a nice collection of them. Why so many?

With a 45 year old tank, any original coral? Dare i say fish?

I make them.
I have no original coral and the oldest fish is a fireclown who is still spawning at 25 years old.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

@Lowell Lemon
Do you agree that in the case of Paul Glass tank gave an edge over acrylic if he had one?

I have no idea if Glass tank is an advantage for Paul over Acrylic. Since you and I build Acrylic tanks I would love to say Acrylic is an advantage in higher clarity, thermo efficiency, optical clarity, impact resistance, seam strength, but not as good at scratch resistance. How is that?

 

[Paul B]

It doesn't matter. They did not have acrylic tanks when I got mine. They also did not have credit cards, computers, cell phones, MP3 players, I pods, Myley Cyrus, E Mail, Face time, cable TV, Lady GaGa, or much of anything except Elvis Presley and the Rockettes.

 

[TherealplexiG]

but not as good at scratch resistance. How is that?

That's only thing to worry. If only Paul had it, he would have arms/muscles like Popeye. You know what I mean.
I have learnt acrylic fabrication from you guys. Actually I make glass tanks professionally. I could pass you on the trick of trades ADA uses to manufacture seamless tanks, I think that's what you were looking for at some point..without the need of credit card of course. Just shoot me your email address in pm. And I could brief you about the process as good as I can.

 

[Paul B]

I also use plexiglass for everything. When we closed the NY Playboy Club for renovations I took home a few 6X2' pieces of it. I took them home because they had printed on them life size pictures of the centerfolds. They had them lining the walls with lights in back of then. Over the years I cleaned off the pictures and used the plexy. They would probably have been worth quite a lot today if I kept them intact.

 

[hart24601]

I don't know who made the silicon for my tank but it has kept it from leaking since my Mother N Law bought me that tank in 1979 or so. It is an odd shaped tank at 100 gallons (I think it is really 90 gallons) it is 6' long and I think 14" high.
As for a bare bottom being able to support as many fish I think of it this way. Think of bacteria (which are plants) as tiny sponges that can soak up either nitrates, ammonia, nitrite or Coca Cola. A sponge can hold a little or a lot of liquid just as bacteria can. When a sponge or bacteria absorb more, like us, they expand. A grain of gravel can contain 9,783,246 individual bacteria (yes I made that number up) but if that number was correct, the same flat area of a piece of glass can hold only 2,783,246 bacteria. (also made up) But whatever the quantity is, the gravel can contain much more bacteria. Now we don't just use one layer of gravel, we use gravel maybe 200 grains thick. Now doing the math in my head, carry the 7 etc I come up with 19,566,492 individual bacteria living on the same footprint as those 2,783,246 bacteria were living on that flat piece of glass. Multiply that by the bottom area of a tank and I can't do the math but there are billions of more bacteria on gravel or sand than a flat piece of glass.

Now you mentioned that all is well unless something dies or there is an accident. Do you know how many accidents and how many times things died in my tank in the 45 years it has been running?
If my tank was bare bottom it would have crashed dozens of times. It didn't because all those skinny bacteria living in my reverse undergravel filter with all that water flowing through it have an enormous appetite and can "absorb" many times their weight in wastes. They, like most bacteria can also double in numbers in a few hours. I wish my tomatoes would grow so fast.
In a bare bottom tank those bacteria are already practically filled with wastes so there is little room for accidents or things dying.

I will give a few examples. Many years ago I kept a very large carpet anemone. The thing took up almost a quarter of the bottom of my tank. We were away, the thing got stuck in an intake and croaked. The tank stunk like a dead cat and you could not see anything in there. I think some fish died (I don't remember) but in a day, the tank cleared up and there was no problem. Another time I had an urchin collection business "Urchin Searchin Enterprise" where I would SCUBA dive for urchins to sell to hobbiests. I had too many for my chilled tank so I put 24 of them in my reef. The next morning they must have noticed the Supermodel I had feeding the tank so they all decided to spawn at once. The water looked like Half and Half. I could have made Pina Colada's out of it. I diatom filtered the water and nothing happened. Try that with a bare bottom.
Many times in those years our power went out and was out for days. Nothing happened.

I think this is the girl who was feeding my tank that day with the urchins.

Clearly you love your sand, nothing wrong with that and it's ok to disagree in this hobby. I have made my career in microbiology specifically developing inoculants and some vaccine related work. The molecular work now is so powerful really so powerful that perhaps it's better lumped in with molecular biology but now I am just rambling. There are a couple things you address with bacteria that might not be exactly spot on. Remember that just because you have a large surface area does not mean it's covered in bacteria and also in environments like these biofilms typically develop and the bacteria are not spread out just 2D but 3d too such as on top of each other. Many times a bacteria such as an ammonia utilizer will be found in biofilm with nitrite using ones and more so they form these complex communities, however they are limited by the food in the tank (daily feedings and the waste that comes with that from fish and inverts). Just because you have a crazy amount of surface area does not mean you have more bacteria. They grow to accommodate the average daily nutrient import give or take a bit.

I am sure you have had many accidents over the years, however I think you missed my point. These bacteria are must populate and grow when an accident occurs, they are not just there and waiting. While some bacteria can grow exponentially in a very short time the ones we use for ammonia cycle are very slow growing by microbe standards. That is why it takes so long to cycle a tank even if feeding ammonia. If they grew that fast new tank cycles would take only a day or two at most.

Most of our tanks have an abundance of surface area, do you read a lot of posts about how people can't get their ammonia to drop and the solution is more LR? Just doesn't happen unless something dies, and that as I said above can't be buffered by additional SA as the bacteria grows too slow.

You say the tank would have crashed a dozen times if BB. Have you ever run BB for any time (months or years)? You could equally say if you had been BB the number of accidents and deaths would have been much less. Both are speculation. You have a few examples of times you think sand helped the tank, but perhaps you would have had less losses or exactly the same if didn't have sand.

If someone likes sand that is great, I think sand looks nice and the small inverts are fun to watch, but from a bacterial holding capacity and response to ammonia context they don't provide much benefit to the abundant SA we already run currently. However this is a minor disagreement, and I do share your dislike of dsb...

 

[TherealplexiG]

@hart24601
There is a difference between available surface area and usable surface area for bacteria. I do agree to your point of 3 dimensional. But the bacteria which are produced naturally are not that dormant as the initial cycle takes. I'm not a biologist but I do have practical experience of holding a wholesale facility for a good span.
Dosing Ammonia directly and something dying in a tank are both different cases. As Ammonia generated from the dead matter is relatively slow and in context to that the bacteria facilitate.
But I'm sure when Paul is running a granular form of substrate to facilitate his undergravel system.

 

[hart24601]

What is the difference between available and usable surface area?

When something dies it seems to release ammonia quite quickly once actual decay sets in, exactly same as dosing ammonia but dosing how much is the question. There are a few papers out there that look at growth rates (in normal aquarium conditions) and 11 days seems to be around the time most ammonia utilizing bacteria double in population. That is very slow and not much use in emergencies. So having an excess of biomedia isn't of great use in an accident because the issue is growth limiting not a lack of room for them to grow. And as I have previously stated the vast majority of reef tanks now have excess bio-capacity.

If one is concerned about this then just toss some biomedia in the sump. Lots of types out there that have huge bacterial holding capacity. I doubt it will make any difference, but if it makes someone feel better then money well spent. I mean if sand is good then why not add even more if using sand or BB, doesn't hurt anything. From the arguments made it would seem some suggest that every tank needs more area for bacteria, I only suggest that isn't the case in most reefs.

 

[Paul B]

Thanks Hart. I know from experience when I collect NSW and store it in a bucket, there isn't enough area for the bacteria to live on the sides of the bucket so they cloud the water, sometimes to the point of looking like milk. I collect water a lot and the tiny fraction of life that dies, completely fouls the water until the bacteria present consume the wastes, then the water clears. In my simple mind, more surface area means mote bacteria. I realize they will only grow if food is present but that is the way my mind works. I have run a bare bottom tan for decades as my local New York tank is BB. I have no filtration in there and just change the water with my tank water and I rarely feed so I am not sure what would happen if something big died in there. But my reef has been running for 45 years with gravel so I know at least, that system can work.
I do enjoy this conversation.

 

[TherealplexiG]

Hart
U don't think they double up at specific time frame, as you mentioned 11 days.. Alot of factor implies when comes to bacterial reproduction. Available surface is the amount of surface area what you can measure. Useable actually what bacteria uses to strive, thrive and reproduce. Also over a period of time the surface area depending on the media or source degrades due to clogging.
You can contact Dr. Tim of the product range Tim one and only , he has done a lotsa research on different strains of bacteria for aquaculture. He can brief you in detail. I have heard of him, I don't know him though! I'm from half way around the world..

I can't continue, would have to take a break. My reports just came, knocked by malaria. Even supermodels Cant help now..gotta get back to recovery.

Peace ya, see ya next time if I make it.. Lol


PS. I don't believe in encapsulated bacteria of any sort. Coz comparing to natural strains would vary in different cases...but that Dr Tim guy has put on a lot of research, he might also have a paper of some sort.. Dunno.

 

[Paul B]

Supermodels can always help. Where the heck did you get malaria? I was in Viet Nam for a year but I had to take anti malaria drugs every day. Maybe you should take Prizapro.

 

[mjk250]

how about Caitlin?

It doesn't matter. They did not have acrylic tanks when I got mine. They also did not have credit cards, computers, cell phones, MP3 players, I pods, Myley Cyrus, E Mail, Face time, cable TV, Lady GaGa, or much of anything except Elvis Presley and the Rockettes.

 

[Paul B]

Yeah ,and Caitlin. We also had Janis Joplin

 

[TherealplexiG]

Prizapro

I live in the red zone, worse then Vietnam.. Can't do nothing about it. But it's for the first time that I caught this disease...