Old Tank Syndrome

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Old Tank Syndrome

Is this a myth? Something we heard about in the deep abbesses of when the hobby started (I think it was on a Tuesday) Is this something we need to worry about. Like we don't have enough to worry about with the heartbreak of psoriasis and wondering if we will be accepted into the "Hair club for men".

I realize the vast majority of tanks crash, or for some reason fail to thrive for more than a few years. Why is that? Is it due to Old Tank Syndrome, Wikileaks, or something else?

Tanks crash for all sorts of reasons, disease (affecting the tank, or us) financing is a big one. it could be a decision to buy another nose ring or a blue legged hermit crab. It could be lack of interest, (I think that is a big one) Sometimes our spouse just doesn't want a tank, although I don't know why one would have such a spouse.

Many tanks crash due to a power failure, flood, earthquake, hair algae, cyano or my favorite RAP music.

I think I have the answer to all these problems. Noah and I used to sit on the Ark and ponder these things.

I think lack of interest is the biggest factor and probably the hardest to rectify. If you don't have any interest it is probably better if you quit and go on to other things. It is silly to keep pouring money into something that you lost your love for. Of course all of us lose interest in some parts of the hobby over time. For instance when my fish spawn for the first time, I get all excited and send out cigars. Then I sit up all night and feed and name each baby. But after that fish spawns many times, I will not get as excited, (but I will run out of names) although I will still never lose my interest as I still find it fascinating. When those things happen, I embrace other parts of the hobby like building my own rocks or spawning different fish.

Re aquascape. Don't worry about mini cycles (Whatever that is) Just remove your rock and corals and put them in a different place. It's a hobby, have fun with it. If a coral dies, better it than you. You need to keep up the interest.

Finances seems to be a big problem, but I have not found that to be a problem. Of course if you are the type of person that must have the biggest, best and most expensive new, shiny thing that comes out, you of course can go broke. My 100 gallon tank costs me $960.00 a year to keep. That is a lot of money but I spend more on pictures of Supermodels or those little plastic things on the end of my shoelaces.

I feed clams and live blackworms. The worms cost a bit but the clams are very cheap. If you live in Arizona or Utah, the clams may be a little high, I really don't know. I change water about 5 times a year. I realize a lot of people feel the need to change an ounce of water every three hours, but that is IMO not necessary unless you feed your fish a side of beef twice a day.

Rap music, I have no control of but it is not played in my house and if it was, I would wrap my tank (and my head) in bubble wrap.

Lets talk about crashing. Except for disease (which I wrote about elsewhere) the biggest cause of "Old Tank Syndrome" is caused by bacteria, or lack of them. Bacteria run our tanks and we are just here for the bacteria to make fun of, especially if we wear a Speedo near our tank. Bacteria clean the water for us for free. Changing the water can help the bacteria, but if we change it too much, it can make the bacteria mad. There is a reason new tanks with all new water are not very healthy. But, that doesn't mean we should stop changing water.

The bacteria, eventually need our help. In the sea they don't need help because someone there helps them. Mother Nature. In the sea Mother Nature provides typhoons. I also provide typhoons in my tank as much as I can. Let me explain.

The bacteria rely on surface area to do their job. They also need food in the form of nutrients and "some" but not all bacteria need oxygen. Bacteria live on all surfaces, even (unfortunately) your girlfriends nose ring. If you tried to keep fish alive in a bare tank, you would have to change the water almost daily because there is not enough room for bacteria to grow. This is also why a tank with a bare bottom can not support as many fish as a tank with gravel. It is just math. I am not too good in Math but the bacteria are great at it. The more spaces they have, the more they will multiply. They will grow on top of each other, but only up to a limit. Suppose you were to try to live like that. Think about it. Bacteria need surfaces and in our tanks, the surfaces are mostly on the substrate and the rocks. Not just on the rocks, but inside them, in the pores. The "rocks" we use in our tanks are not even real rocks. They were built by microscope creatures living on the rock. The creatures exuded this material and in the process of doing this, the "rock" was built full of pores. Inside these pores live the bacteria. The aerobic bacteria live near the surface and use the oxygen abundant there. The anaerobic bacteria live deeper in the pores and need far less, if any oxygen. I think they have larger noses to utilize the inadequate supplies of oxygen. Those are the bacteria that convert the nitrates to nitrate gas that escapes.

The problem is over time, those pores clog and those anaerobic bacteria, although can live in clogged pores, have no access to our tank water so they can't process wastes. When that happens, they can no longer do the macarana or any dance so they will die and become part of the stuff that is clogging the pores.

This is a 2" sewer pipe I removed from my house. All pores will eventually clog like this given enough time. No, Liquid Plumber will not fix this.



This is where we come in. As I said the sea has Mother Nature, but we have power filters. I use a diatom filter which is just a canister filter with a powerful pump. It also removes tiny particles much smaller than a normal canister filter but we do not need to remove particles that small. We mainly need something with a strong pump. You can use a turkey baster but that is a Sissy way to do it and most of the bacteria will just laugh at you. You may have to put your ear to the glass to hear them, but trust me, they are laughing.

I use one of these every day, mostly for target feeding but I also blow off the rocks. As I said, this is a Sissy way to do it and it won't make up for the major cleaning with the filter.



On the outflow of my power filter I install a nozzle. I make that out of one of those little green plastic things that florists put carnations in to keep them alive. You can get them from a florist for a few cents. They look like a small funnel but the hole is closed so you need to drill a hole in the small end. If there are no florists near you, move or make something else. This is not rocket science just find a way to make the end of the outflow hose smaller.

You can see those green plastic things here. I also use them to build venture valves.


This will provide a strong stream of water that you carefully aim at your exposed rock surfaces. Do not hit your corals with it unless you want to buy new corals or make soup. If your corals are moveable, lift them to get under them. Power wash all the surfaces you can and you will be amazed at how much stuff comes out of the rocks. You will also be amazed at how many things your spouse can come up for you to do instead of doing this.

2015-03-17%2000.47.39_zps3rujxiyp.jpg


In my tank I use a reverse under gravel filter (OK, stop laughing) so I can do this to my gravel, but if you have sand, be very careful. If you have a DSB, IMO your tank won't last more than ten or twelve years anyway so you are on your own, but at least do it to the rocks.

I only perform this maintenance once or twice a year and so far, after 45 years, it seems to have worked. Of course I never play Rap music especially if I am wearing my Speedo.
When you are done, you can take a video of your tank and show it to your neighbors on your projector.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

saltyhog

blowing bubbles somewhere
View Badges
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
9,392
Reaction score
25,022
Location
Conway, Arkansas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hmmmm....two mentions of nose rings in a single post. What's Paul trying to tell us? :D

Good write up! Only thing I disagree with is that bare bottom tanks can't support as many fish as one with substrate. With very porous live rock, remote live rock in the sump or the new ceramic media (that has acres of surface area compared to rock) fish behavior and social interactions will limit fish numbers a long time before lack of filtration will.
 

tj w

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Oct 10, 2015
Messages
2,170
Reaction score
1,283
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Link is not working for me..[emoji17]
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,485
Reaction score
23,570
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
For sure OTS is real, and preventable. all one has to do to model its biology is set up a deep sand bed nano reef, don't touch the sand in anyway, and check back in 4 yrs. that waste storage consequence which would take ten years to manifest on a 100 gal takes a good 2-4 yrs on a small nano.

there's a reason that only a select few nano reefs are very old, and the rest are long gone (excluding moves, and hardware issues)

If you store up detritus in a nano in any way, they don't get past 4 yrs on the smaller ones. larger ones go longer in the hands off condition, results are the same
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Hmmmm....two mentions of nose rings in a single post. What's Paul trying to tell us? :D

Good write up! Only thing I disagree with is that bare bottom tanks can't support as many fish as one with substrate. With very porous live rock, remote live rock in the sump or the new ceramic media (that has acres of surface area compared to rock) fish behavior and social interactions will limit fish numbers a long time before lack of filtration will.

Yes, but if you have a bare bottom tank with all those things you mention and a tank with a substrate and all those things you mention, the tank with the substrate will support more bacteria just because sand or gravel has much more surface area as glass. I will agree that the bacteria may be able to dance better on the bare glass but that is neither here nor there.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I don't feel detritus in itself is a bad thing. I feel it is inert and home to the creatures we need in our tanks to support a food web. I only feel it is harmful when it clogs pores and limits bacterial life. I am sure my tank still has detritus in it since the 70s and it doesn't seem to do any harm. I depend on areas of detritus that eventually become mulm to house numerous copepods, amphipods and bacteria to provide food and shelter to the tiny forms of life an old, aged tank relies on to support it's ecosystem. Without this I would not be able to keep the tiny pipefish, mandarins, ruby red dragonettes and small gobies. I also want to feed the thousands of tube worms, brittle stars and other newborns of the various life in the tank.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Here is a picture of mulm that grows on the back and sides of my tank. I realize it looks like algae but it is not. I lightened up the picture (and turned it sideways) because it is in the dark and I would not see it otherwise. That clingfish hunts there as well as the blue striped pipefish and urchins. It is loaded with copepods and amphipods and I want it to grow as much as I can.
It can take years to get a good growth of this stuff and I consider it healthy. Of course this stuff also grows in the pores of the rock where I don't want it.


If you squint real hard, you can see a copepod in there.
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,485
Reaction score
23,570
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Paul I think the location of that important detritus is in the accessible zones though, not under your gravel bed so that location differential is huge. typical detritus is packed into the aged deep sand beds, the ones from the 90s not ran as RUGF. that's why we have scores of algae and cyano/spiru issues in todays tanks, that storage in a non beneficial zone. I strongly believe without your RUGF and the physical expulsion of detritus even when you aren't disassembly cleaning the tank wouldn't have lasted this long, detritus management and dang good hardware planning were key tenets.

I think all the DSB from the 90s was wrong, so it cant be reproduced in a nano reef long term. The information about keeping SPS sure was correct, so it can. IMO, nano reefs are the fact checkers of reef claims because they show outcomes within reasonable time frames.

I think the only reason the hands off mode gained traction in the 90s was due to dilutions, and how long it takes a 100gallon tank to register OTS symptoms often being longer than the average keeper will keep the tank. None of the older DSB info can be downscaled to nano reefs, even fishless ones taking on the bare minimum detrital loading permanently into the sand show this amazing 36-48 mo eutrophication tendency.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I have never liked DSBs and saw the flaw in them from the beginning when Dr Shimek advocated them. The idea is sound but the technology to keep them running is unworkable long term.
The idea is that creatures wriggle down there, disturbing the sand slightly so that some water can get down there and be processed. That happens for maybe 10 or 12 years but that is just about the lifespan of a hermit crab and not what I consider long term. Those creatures are not stupid and will not go down there for long because they need oxygen. Eventually that will clog in the lower layers and clog bad. I think if you drilled a hole in the bottom of a tank with a 10 year old DSB I doubt is would even leak. Go ahead and try it. :eek:
In any case, I doubt it will process much of anything and it can't be maintained. My RUGF can be maintained any time I want and will work as good as the first day I installed it. Nothing will last forever but a RUGF comes close to forever. :D
 
Last edited:

Engloid

Valuable Member
View Badges
Joined
Mar 26, 2010
Messages
2,082
Reaction score
315
Location
Tennessee
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I wont cry if it gets deleted. No big thing if they dont like it. Haha
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I wont cry if it gets deleted. No big thing if they dont like it. Haha

I know what you mean. Over the years I have had enough posts deleted to make a book the size of "War and Peace" but that was normally on that "other" forum where you have to watch if you use words like
"The Bible", God, Pizza, Holy Canole, Pee Wee Herman, or Supermodel
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,485
Reaction score
23,570
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
fully agreed Paul that's sharp summary. I enjoy Shimeks work and I know his admonitions were based on ocean models, but getting that in a nano, no go and if the natural models worked in tank id expect it on the small scale too
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think I discussed it with him then, when he would come on these forums, but like many smart people, he got tired of the arguments, grew older and now stays off of them.
I myself am getting there (not that I am smart like Dr Shimek, although I am his exact age and we started in the hobby exactly the same time) but I like this forum and there are almost no arguments. Just nice people willing to either learn or teach.
 

saltyhog

blowing bubbles somewhere
View Badges
Joined
Jan 2, 2014
Messages
9,392
Reaction score
25,022
Location
Conway, Arkansas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Yes, but if you have a bare bottom tank with all those things you mention and a tank with a substrate and all those things you mention, the tank with the substrate will support more bacteria just because sand or gravel has much more surface area as glass. I will agree that the bacteria may be able to dance better on the bare glass but that is neither here nor there.

I think you missed the point Paul. Yes there is more surface area for bacterial population in the tank with substrate but it dosen't matter. There's still enough surface area that you will be limited by interactions and incompatabilities among the fish before you will be limited by filtration.
 
OP
OP
Paul B

Paul B

10K Club member
View Badges
Joined
Nov 3, 2010
Messages
17,950
Reaction score
60,762
Location
Long Island NY
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
I think you missed the point Paul. Yes there is more surface area for bacterial population in the tank with substrate but it dosen't matter. There's still enough surface area that you will be limited by interactions and incompatabilities among the fish before you will be limited by filtration.

Saltyhog, we will have to agree to disagree on this one as there are too many variables and a conversation on the subject could go on longer than my life time :)
 

brandon429

why did you put a reef in that
View Badges
Joined
Dec 9, 2014
Messages
29,485
Reaction score
23,570
Location
tejas
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
100% true, a biological oxygen demand liability. extra surface area beyond what it takes to nitrify the target bioloading is a double edged swd
 
Back
Top