Organo-MS - results and evaluations

[Dan_P]

Maybe amino acids get used down to the point where they are no longer readily taken up.

Given how readily aquaria gobble up carbon sources, I can’t understand why such a readily digestible carbon source exists. I don’t have an intuitive feel for how close to zero bacteria drive down nutrients. Maybe we are looking at what the “medium” of stationary growth phase looks like. The second surprising observation is the apparent strong correlation between the two data sets. I never would have predicted this. I am looking forwards to more data.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

Here is mine which just came back today. No real issues with the tank, but wanted to see if there was anything building up. The only thing that came back off was for 'Dimethyl phthalate' which is a plasticizer. I'm guessing it's coming from maybe the RODI tubing which is plastic? Maybe the plastic tube sucking in fresh air into the CO2 scrubber? No idea what else it is, but they did state it's the highest they have seen.

I also run CAC (carbon) 24/7 to keep my DOC at ~2.5. The acros seem to have much more PE when I keep this pretty low.

I dose RMS vitamins every day in the morning. I'm guessing some of the vitamins are already consumed/broken down by the time I took the sample in the evening.

Same with the aminos. RMS aminos all dosed at once in the morning, ~8mL. I might add another shot in the afternoon now.

No pesticides or other pollutants other than the Dimethyl phthalate

 

[Dan_P]

It’s not clear to me how one goes about deciding what levels of amino acids are good or bad, and I expect we as reefers are only in the data gathering stage of that right now.

Lasse, I may have missed it, but do you use GAC? The lack of pesticides and toxins is certainly good, and it will be very interesting to see if folks with problem cyano or dinos, etc., get detectable levels of toxins.

@Lasse, @static416, @Reginald Reefer III, @Christoph,

Did more thinking and searching. It appears that aquarium amino acid concentrations are similar to that found in oligotrophic seawater. The reason for the concentration not being zero is that bacteria can transport amino acids only above (roughly, and it varies) the concentration measured by Organo-MS. This is likely the major reason for amino acid concentrations being similar across the three systems plotted below. I wonder how the make up of the aquarium bacteria population might affect this curve. It appears Lasse and Reginald Reefer III are more similar than either is to Static416 (maybe).

 

[Christoph]

@Reginald Reefer III the concentration of diethyl phthalate in your tank is very high compared to the average system. Interestingly we do seen often high phthalate plasticiser levels in samples from the US. Samples from the EU region do show low levels in most cases.

It would be very interesting to find out the source. Maybe you can share some photos of your sump, tubing, and equipment. I would expect such a lipophilic compound to be also skimmed out (and also bound to GAC) - so there is likely a internal source inside the tank, that causes this leaching. @Dr. Jim might also be interested joining the discussion.

All the best, Christoph

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley Verified Community Expert]

Given how readily aquaria gobble up carbon sources, I can’t understand why such a readily digestible carbon source exists. I don’t have an intuitive feel for how close to zero bacteria drive down nutrients. Maybe we are looking at what the “medium” of stationary growth phase looks like. The second surprising observation is the apparent strong correlation between the two data sets. I never would have predicted this. I am looking forwards to more data.

With any chemical that an organism is taking up, they are either using passive diffusion of the chemical into them, or using some sort of protein active transporter. Critical components such as amino acids at low ordinary concentrations would usually be the latter.

Such transporters function with an uptake rate vs concentration that follows something called Michaelis Menton kinetics based on how well the chemical binds to the transporter. The exact concentrations vary, but the shape of the uptake rate vs concentration curve is often the same. As the concentration is lowered, this curve reaches a point where the uptake rate drops off fast.

The result is that there will be a concentration where uptake essentially stops, and as Christoph notes, the final concentration is a balance between whatever is adding amino acids to the water, and the uptake ability that organisms have for the chemical.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

@Reginald Reefer III the concentration of diethyl phthalate in your tank is very high compared to the average system. Interestingly we do seen often high phthalate plasticiser levels in samples from the US. Samples from the EU region do show low levels in most cases.

It would be very interesting to find out the source. Maybe you can share some photos of your sump, tubing, and equipment. I would expect such a lipophilic compound to be also skimmed out (and also bound to GAC) - so there is likely a internal source inside the tank, that causes this leaching. @Dr. Jim might also be interested joining the discussion.

All the best, Christoph

You're going to make me clean up my sump!

I'll grab some pictures later today.

 

[Lasse]

Here is @static416 ´s result. IMO -Its good to have them in the same thread.

Figured I'd share the results of the new Oceamo Organo-MS test on my tanks.

It's a 350gal SPS tank, no major issues at the moment.

• Detected the Fluconazole from June, despite carbon and water changes.
• Detected Oxybenzone (sunscreen) despite very minor and brief contact two weeks ago.
• My aminos are low despite dosing Reef Energy continuously. But my dose is a bit low, so I'll increase it.

Generally pretty happy with the test. Likely not something I'll run all the time, but maybe twice a year unless there are specific issues to diagnose.

Probably run a second one in a month or so just to confirm I've corrected the issues in this one.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

With any chemical that an organism is taking up, they are either using passive diffusion of the chemical into them, or using some sort of protein active transporter. Critical components such as amino acids at low ordinary concentrations would usually be the latter.

Such transporters function with an uptake rate vs concentration that follows something called Michaelis Menton kinetics based on how well the chemical binds to the transporter. The exact concentrations vary, but the shape of the uptake rate vs concentration curve is often the same. As the concentration is lowered, this curve reaches a point where the uptake rate drops off fast.

The result is that there will be a concentration where uptake essentially stops, and as Christoph notes, the final concentration is a balance between whatever is adding amino acids to the water, and the uptake ability that organisms have for the chemical.

That seems like “the” explanation for residual amino acids being nearly the same concentration across multiple systems. Not sure now what value these measurements bring to AA dosing.

 

[Lasse]

@Lasse, @static416, @Reginald Reefer III, @Christoph,

Did more thinking and searching. It appears that aquarium amino acid concentrations are similar to that found in oligotrophic seawater. The reason for the concentration not being zero is that bacteria can transport amino acids only above (roughly, and it varies) the concentration measured by Organo-MS. This is likely the major reason for amino acid concentrations being similar across the three systems plotted below. I wonder how the make up of the aquarium bacteria population might affect this curve. It appears Lasse and Reginald Reefer III are more similar than either is to Static416 (maybe).

Correct me if I'm wrong - what I got from a search is that normal concentrations of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) in reef lagoons (the coral environment most similar to our aquarium) are between 1 - 100 nM or 0.001 - 0.1 µM. As an example, my glutamic acid concentration of 0.527 µg/L will be around 0.00358 µM. That's consistent with your chart, but the seawater limits need to be changed to run between 0.001 and 0.1 µM

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dan_P]

Correct me if I'm wrong - what I got from a search is that normal concentrations of dissolved free amino acids (DFAA) in reef lagoons (the coral environment most similar to our aquarium) are between 1 - 100 nM or 0.001 - 0.1 µM. As an example, my glutamic acid concentration of 0.527 µg/L will be around 0.00358 µM. That's consistent with your chart, but the seawater limits need to be changed to run between 0.001 and 0.1 µM

Sincerely Lasse

Sounds good. Definitely will need the relevant reference points.

 

[Dr. Jim]

Here is mine which just came back today. No real issues with the tank, but wanted to see if there was anything building up. The only thing that came back off was for 'Dimethyl phthalate' which is a plasticizer. I'm guessing it's coming from maybe the RODI tubing which is plastic? Maybe the plastic tube sucking in fresh air into the CO2 scrubber? No idea what else it is, but they did state it's the highest they have seen.

I also run CAC (carbon) 24/7 to keep my DOC at ~2.5. The acros seem to have much more PE when I keep this pretty low.

I dose RMS vitamins every day in the morning. I'm guessing some of the vitamins are already consumed/broken down by the time I took the sample in the evening.

I ran two tests on my tank and DEP levels were found to be 42.5 and 49.7. Christoph told me he considered these "HIGH", So, apparently, your level of 338 is extremely high. BUT, I think the good news is that maybe DEP isn't bothering anything because you said there are "no real issues with your tank," I'm starting to not worry as much about my "high" levels now! However, it would still be nice to know where the DEP are coming from.

I'm preparing a very detailed report to post about my case, but first, I'm awaiting a few responses from Christoph; and, may I ask you a few questions?:

1) Do you use frag glue? If so, would you say you use it a lot, sparingly, or somewhere in between? Do you cure pieces in a separate container for at least a couple of hours before introducing them back into your tank?
2) Do you have eggcrate in your tank? If so, is it white or black and roughly how much?
3) Do you perform water changes? If so, what percentage and frequency?
4) What brand of salt do you use?

Thanks for the info.....I'll post again soon.....

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I ran two tests on my tank and DEP levels were found to be 42.5 and 49.7. Christoph told me he considered these "HIGH", So, apparently, your level of 338 is extremely high. BUT, I think the good news is that maybe DEP isn't bothering anything because you said there are "no real issues with your tank," I'm starting to not worry as much about my "high" levels now! However, it would still be nice to know where the DEP are coming from.

I'm preparing a very detailed report to post about my case, but first, I'm awaiting a few responses from Christoph; and, may I ask you a few questions?:

1) Do you use frag glue? If so, would you say you use it a lot, sparingly, or somewhere in between? Do you cure pieces in a separate container for at least a couple of hours before introducing them back into your tank?
2) Do you have eggcrate in your tank? If so, is it white or black and roughly how much?
3) Do you perform water changes? If so, what percentage and frequency?
4) What brand of salt do you use?

Thanks for the info.....I'll post again soon.....

I have been thinking today about where the plasticizer could have come from and I may have found the culprit. In the past 3-4 months, I have made growout plates from 3D printed frag plug holders and some plastic coated magnets from K&J. I did a lot of research on reef safe magnets and this was the suggestion:

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/dc6pc-blk-neodymium-plastic-coated-disc-magnet

These are the specs for the plastic coating

I would be willing to bet this is where the plasticizer concentrations are coming from.

As to your questions:

1) Frag glue as in cyanoacrylate? If yes, I have used it quite a bit in the past, but not lately. I use BSI IC-Gel exclusively. The last time I used this was 3-4 months ago. I do not separate this into any other containers. Pretty much glue and place.
2) No eggcrate.
3) I haven't done a WC for over a year. Strictly going off of RMS system with monthly ICP-MS tests. None of the tests have ever shown anything toxic (Neo./Cu/etc)
4) I have very sparingly used any salt, but when I do it's Brightwell NeoMarine. My nanos get bi-weekly water changes with it.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I have been thinking today about where the plasticizer could have come from and I may have found the culprit. In the past 3-4 months, I have made growout plates from 3D printed frag plug holders and some plastic coated magnets from K&J. I did a lot of research on reef safe magnets and this was the suggestion:

https://www.kjmagnetics.com/dc6pc-blk-neodymium-plastic-coated-disc-magnet

These are the specs for the plastic coating

I would be willing to bet this is where the plasticizer concentrations are coming from.

As to your questions:

1) Frag glue as in cyanoacrylate? If yes, I have used it quite a bit in the past, but not lately. I use BSI IC-Gel exclusively. The last time I used this was 3-4 months ago. I do not separate this into any other containers. Pretty much glue and place.
2) No eggcrate.
3) I haven't done a WC for over a year. Strictly going off of RMS system with monthly ICP-MS tests. None of the tests have ever shown anything toxic (Neo./Cu/etc)
4) I have very sparingly used any salt, but when I do it's Brightwell NeoMarine. My nanos get bi-weekly water changes with it.

Did you find somewhere that the 3D plastic and/or plastic on the magnets definitely contain DEP?
If not, I think all you can do is put them on the long list of possibilities.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I did not. But that's all I can really think of what could cause that concentration of that particular plasticizer at that concentration. I run CAC carbon 24/7 - wouldn't that generally take that out of the water column? I don't have any more reference points beyond what the current and only Organo test states.

 

[Dr. Jim]

I did not. But that's all I can really think of what could cause that concentration of that particular plasticizer at that concentration. I run CAC carbon 24/7 - wouldn't that generally take that out of the water column? I don't have any more reference points beyond what the current and only Organo test states.

I know it would cost money, but you could soak those plastic pieces in RODI water in a glass container (not plastic) for a couple of weeks and send a sample out for another test to see if they leach DEP.
I performed a test similar to this using eggcrate (because I have a lot of it in my system, both white and black eggcrate). The test came back with no DEP.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I would love to, but $100 is pretty expensive!

@Christoph - any chance to send me a test kit for this? I would set up the experiment no problem.

@Dr. Jim - if we can get this setup, send me a PM for exactly what you are looking for. I still have some of the leftover plastic magnets and frag mounts.

 

[Dr. Jim]

@Dr. Jim - if we can get this setup, send me a PM for exactly what you are looking for. I still have some of the leftover plastic magnets and frag mounts.

I was just suggesting a way for you to see if the DEP in your tank is coming from your plastic items you mentioned. I don't have those items in my tank.....I have my own problems that I have to figure out!

 

[Marc Pardon]

With any chemical that an organism is taking up, they are either using passive diffusion of the chemical into them, or using some sort of protein active transporter. Critical components such as amino acids at low ordinary concentrations would usually be the latter.

Such transporters function with an uptake rate vs concentration that follows something called Michaelis Menton kinetics based on how well the chemical binds to the transporter. The exact concentrations vary, but the shape of the uptake rate vs concentration curve is often the same. As the concentration is lowered, this curve reaches a point where the uptake rate drops off fast.

The result is that there will be a concentration where uptake essentially stops, and as Christoph notes, the final concentration is a balance between whatever is adding amino acids to the water, and the uptake ability that organisms have for the chemical.

Any idea how a protein active transporter looks like? I also remember the advice from Julian Sprung's dosing instructions for Acropower: "dose a lot otherwise you don't see the effect" ..... in an answer to somebody's personal question via mail .....posted somewhere here on the forum.

 

[Reginald Reefer III]

I was just suggesting a way for you to see if the DEP in your tank is coming from your plastic items you mentioned. I don't have those items in my tank.....I have my own problems that I have to figure out!

ahhh gotcha. I'm going to do another Organo test in probably 6 months to see if it's still there or if the leaching is done and has been captured by the CAC.

 

[Lasse]

Maybe you said it before - but do you do regular WC?

Sincerely Lasse