Overpriced lighting

[NitrateKillah]

I live in the United States, most anything from Germany especially lighting the reason the price is what it is, almost everything on that product is made in Germany, so to make most lighting that's German ,the labor is a lot higher than say China and for that reason or one reason the price difference but quality control is a lot better from Germany then most countries. GHL products all of it made in Germany, I'll definitely buy that no matter the price than most products made in other countries.

Here's an example, why most products are bit higher made here in the US than say China. I bought a pen a month ago all metal nothing special for $22 plus tax(made in the USA), the same exact pen from China a dollar or dollar fifty. The pen for $22 is made in the US, unfortunately the laws in the US is, if you make anything up to 60% of that product you can put on your advertisement made in the US. So in actuality 60% of that item is made in the US.

I laugh every time something is labeled German in this hobby. My aquamaxx cal reactor works just as it should and I don't see how "German" would make a difference. It still a reactor at the end of the day.

 

[slojim]

One thing I think is interesting is the impact of forums like this. On one hand, they help us save money by being more effective and knowledgeable. And it creates a market for the black box equipment . But it also drives demand for the best How many threads are posed to find the best something? More than the old paradigm of lfs stores, who needed to sell at a decent price point for their area while minimizing returns, the internet drives additional activity at the ends of the spectrum.
Of course these market segments always existed. I'm just saying the ability to see the latest upgrade, the lowest price, and the coolest fixture has shifted the market away from the middle

 

[Darren in Tacoma]

People want premium lights for several reasons.
1. Better growth than cheap lights. I have used cheap leds and realized a definite difference.
2. Controllability. Not many people want to use home depot timers to turn on their lights anymore. Metal halides and vho actinics grow corals very well, but are not as controllable.
3. The light spread, shimmer and general look of the new lights are appealing to most people and surely are taken into account during the decision process.
4. No offense to anyone, but some of those fixtures are just ugly. I, personally, wouldn't want to spend 4 or 5 grand on a state of the art, rimless tank with all the fixens and hang an ugly fixture over the top.

But, taste is a personal thing and people have a different vision for their tank than others. People also have differing budgets.

I also agree about the skimmers being the bigger rip-off. Doesn't seem to be a lot of technology there. Maybe someone will build one with an app and start charging double.

 

[ReefLab]

I own a Kessil but run ReefLED 90’s on my DT and they are incredible. I’ve only been on this site for a short time, but it seems to me that most promote the equipment that they own—almost as if they are trying to validate it. Not saying there is anything inherently wrong with that, but imho it’s a great time to be in this hobby because there are several very good equipment options regardless of whether you are talking about light, water movers, return pumps, dosing pumps, or skimmers.

Yes that’s true but I condone it because after researching and seeing many tanks (and owning hydras myself) I decided that it was the best lighting option (combined with T5)

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Like I mentioned, the subject I brought up about German products was electronics nothing else, pretty obvious. Everything for the aquarium trade that's German and is electronics is made from scratch there. So it's obvious to see why they charged what they charge.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

Spectrum output is just what spectrums they claim it outputs at. That is my point, you get lots of marketing material with spectrum graphs that show you what the light is supposed to output in terms of wavelength and yet no hard proof through an industry standard test benchmark. Brs providing settings is only giving you the ideal settings for that light, not providing proof that the light is actually outputting a specific wavelength the manufacturer is claiming it to.

Cri might not be exactly the correct benchmark for this industry but probably is. Cri is telling you how faithful a light source is at rendering any color within the visible spectrum, using true daylight from the sun as the control light source. So a led light that has a 99 cri is capable of rendering colors at nearly perfect accuracy compared to the same colors under sunlight, while another light that has a cri of 85 is kinda poor at reproducing colors accurately and anything lit by it just looks muddy and strangely tinted.

What you end up seeing in film led lighting fixtures is the high end super expensive fixtures have really high cri ratings because the cost of producing LEDs that are that accurate is not cheap, but then you could also go get a similar led fixture that is dirt cheap made under some random brand in China and it is cheap because the cri of those LEDs is horrible.

I say this benchmark might not be ideal for sw lighting because you guys don't really care about faithful reproduction of colors under true sunlight, but prefer very specific targeted spectrums within visible and non visible ranges. But there should still be some testing done to confirm that when red sea, radion, etc.. say their lights spectrum includes specific wavelengths that they actually do hit those wavelengths. This matters because to any of us, we see it as accurate because our eyes and brains can't determine color accuracy on that level in the same way and for the same reasons we also can't tell par just from looking. But your corals sure can tell because they need those specific wavelengths for energy.

Color rendering index - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Manufacturers of reef lights are aware of cri, however it's not a big concern because of the spectrum reef tanks require. Cri would be important on a planted or reptile aquarium when you want to mimic natural light. The 14k-20k spectrum is more what corals desire, and that can be tested with a spectrometer and BRS does test that in their videos.

 

[Scott71]

Like others said, manufacturers will charge what they can and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think if you look at any new person posting questions asking for light recommendations, the majority of people will say Radion, Kessil, AI, etc.

Then you see a few T5, MH and other brands. If your new to the hobby and all the people with the best looking tanks have expensive lights, then you follow suit.

There are plenty of cheap lights (black boxes) out there. The problem is someone has to differentiate between cheap good and cheap bad. I’ve seen a few write ups where reefers are using $100 black boxes and have beautiful corals, including SPS. So we know it can work.

I think the best thing that could happen is for WWC, Zoanthids.com, Battlecorals, or someone of the like to have a couple of tanks using low priced lights that are widely available and then report on it. If they did this successfully , it would have great influence on what people think and could start a movement.

Someone like BRS, Marine Depot or others is not going to do this because.......they like to sell $600 lights and make $200-$300 each time. Don’t forget that the Mfg also makes $200 or more when they sell to them. So it only makes sense that the real cost of the light is somewhere in the $150 range. But completely fair for everyone to make their share.

If one of the major coral growers could validate a reputable cheaper alternative that you can buy direct (Amazon) it would have a big impact.

No doubt lighting is critical.

BTW. I use AI (non HD) that I bought used (3 years old when someone had to have the latest).

I also just bought a light off Amazon that I think will work well enough. Getting 340 par at top and 125 par at bottom. Not as much coverage, but for $80 including the tank mount, I could get 2-4 more of them and still be ahead. Just connects to manual timer. No ramping. Can adjust whites only, blue only or both together and then 4 different intensities (although I leave at 100%).

Time will tell. Until then, keep buying used!

 

[vanpire]

I forgot to say, the hobby were in is a rich man's hobby. We always have to take that into consideration

While it may seem that way and being rich has its advantages, u can have a quality reef tank for a reasonable cost. Just look around and there are tons of high quality used equipment that work really well for growing corals and fish.

It is hard to grow corals well and keep a healthy tank and many people can’t do it. Some can but many have problems. So if u can’t show off your reefing skills, you can always show off your purchasing skills with the best equipment, tank builds, color matching pipes and sumps, etc.

 

[NitrateKillah]

LED's are popular because MH are known to pop the breaker. Unless you own your own home and able to input a 220 volt light controller.

Most people who rent do not have that capability to upgrade to a 220 volt and will never see the capabilities of MH. I was forced to use LED's, as I was still living at home, their rules, their home.

Now I have my own, I have that leisure to do so. Back in my day it was either MH, which was cream of the crop. Then it was T5, VHO, and power compacts.

Today we have 800$-2K$ LED's in a black plastic box. Who in their right mind want to control MH? that's because no one have seen it in action. 400 Watt PFO HQI over driven with a Radium....GOOD LAWD!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[blasterman]

LED's are popular because MH are known to pop the breaker.

A 150watt LED fixture is just as likely to pop a breaker if not more than a 150watt MH. LED power supplies, especially chinese ones have terrible power factors and are loaded with caps that can pull more instantaneous current on 120 than 220 or a modern electronic MH ballast. I've seen a series of 90watt chinese PARs toss 20amp breakers with ease. Also, many of us had MH in the past and don't consider 'MH' the gold standard of reef lighting. I like 14k radiums and consider it one of the best spectrums in the MH industry because of it's extended red line, but prefer my LED fixtures.

 

[DungSl1nger]

Like most said it’s what the buyer will pay. I am very new and protein skimmer cost floored me. I am trying to find where the R&D money went. As far as lights I went with the RedSea 90’s just because I didn’t know any better. I like them but wonder if growth would be different with something else. All I knew I wanted was a more efficient tank because I would rather pay more for the corals than electric. This is my third most expensive hobby at the moment. On top of this I don’t know much about that part of husbandry. I think this is where the desire to have the “best” comes in. If the consensus is Kessel lights are the best people will skip that part of planning Their tank.

over The years I modded many cars, my current car cat back is 2200 even though it has less metal than my Mustang or Camaro Catbacks, which has a market price of almost 1k less. If I recall correctly that’s call economy of scale.

oh and beer is getting to expensive while we are at it.

 

[blasterman]

Someone like BRS, Marine Depot or others is not going to do this because.......they like to sell $600 lights

Yeah...this.

BRS does great reviews...on anything not lighting based. They really need to stick to tank chemistry tests. When it comes to lighting they remind me of Jay and Silent Bob when it comes to photometrics.. Again, the majority of hardcore SPS keepers I've personally met don't use these high priced lights. They are using black boxes, or T5's. Look at the tanks the BRS guys have in their offices vs the black box lit SPS showcases tanks on youtube and tell me again who you believe

 

[blasterman]

People want premium lights for several reasons.
1. Better growth than cheap lights. I have used cheap leds and realized a definite difference.

Please provide me evidence that cheap lights grow corals better than expensive ones other than marketing bunk. Again, youtube is loaded with spectacular SPS tanks you wished you had run with chinese black boxes. Most of these expensive lights I see are on amatuer tanks with light LPS abd softie loads. Wow, look at the Xenia under the radions. Also, *you* might want essoteric features so you can program a Disney on Ice lighting mode, but serious reef keepers dont want those features because they want to grow coral. Ironically the guys who grow really killer high end SPS tanks are doing so because they have the capability to filter actual science from marketing trash....like Kessil or Radion claiming they discovered chlorophyll AB lines.

Basically somebody buys an expensive light, has lousy looking corals but then needs to emotionally justify their purchase. The manufacturers then provide psuedo science on their site claiming that a miniscule spectral band with 5% the radiometric output of the relevant 450nm peak grows better corals.

 

[Rick.45cal]

Sometimes buying a product from Germany or America is helping support a like minded community and not just about growing corals.

 

[dawson reynolds]

Like others said, manufacturers will charge what they can and there is nothing wrong with that.

I think if you look at any new person posting questions asking for light recommendations, the majority of people will say Radion, Kessil, AI, etc.

Then you see a few T5, MH and other brands. If your new to the hobby and all the people with the best looking tanks have expensive lights, then you follow suit.

There are plenty of cheap lights (black boxes) out there. The problem is someone has to differentiate between cheap good and cheap bad. I’ve seen a few write ups where reefers are using $100 black boxes and have beautiful corals, including SPS. So we know it can work.

I think the best thing that could happen is for WWC, Zoanthids.com, Battlecorals, or someone of the like to have a couple of tanks using low priced lights that are widely available and then report on it. If they did this successfully , it would have great influence on what people think and could start a movement.

Someone like BRS, Marine Depot or others is not going to do this because.......they like to sell $600 lights and make $200-$300 each time. Don’t forget that the Mfg also makes $200 or more when they sell to them. So it only makes sense that the real cost of the light is somewhere in the $150 range. But completely fair for everyone to make their share.

If one of the major coral growers could validate a reputable cheaper alternative that you can buy direct (Amazon) it would have a big impact.

No doubt lighting is critical.

BTW. I use AI (non HD) that I bought used (3 years old when someone had to have the latest).

I also just bought a light off Amazon that I think will work well enough. Getting 340 par at top and 125 par at bottom. Not as much coverage, but for $80 including the tank mount, I could get 2-4 more of them and still be ahead. Just connects to manual timer. No ramping. Can adjust whites only, blue only or both together and then 4 different intensities (although I leave at 100%).

Time will tell. Until then, keep buying used!

I assume your talking about the hyperreef? I almost bought it but a family member sold me the ocean revive cheap.

 

[alton]

Since this thread is similar to the last I will re-post with some additions
I love these threads! My oldest BML Led is 8 years old and still works fine. My 310 has four of them along with 6 AI Leds that average 5 years of age and cost me $100 each. Lets cover cost on an expensive fixture because this came up in another thread. Philips new fixture to cost $800+? The same fixture but 4,000 K with a 5' cord, no controls and considered a high bay fixture 24,000 Lumens my cost with Tax $527.17 and last year my company bought 1 million + in lights from our Philips rep. So with markup you are looking at a off the shelf Led fixture $600. Now change that same fixture with special Leds, controls, and only buying one or two where I bought 100's and you are not paying that much more for a specialty fixture.
I tried Mars Aqua black box under $100. It grew coral and I liked the color so I bought two more and put them on my 180 and grew softies just fine. But after a year of use on the first one ran at 50% I had to increase it to 100% to keep up with the par of the newer two run at 50%. Hobby'st need to understand there are top bin leds and junk leds produced everyday. And since Radion came up ever notice the resale value?
It's great to live in a country where we all have so many choices!

 

[Darren in Tacoma]

Please provide me evidence that cheap lights grow corals better than expensive ones other than marketing bunk. Again, youtube is loaded with spectacular SPS tanks you wished you had run with chinese black boxes. Most of these expensive lights I see are on amatuer tanks with light LPS abd softie loads. Wow, look at the Xenia under the radions. Also, *you* might want essoteric features so you can program a Disney on Ice lighting mode, but serious reef keepers dont want those features because they want to grow coral. Ironically the guys who grow really killer high end SPS tanks are doing so because they have the capability to filter actual science from marketing trash....like Kessil or Radion claiming they discovered chlorophyll AB lines.

Basically somebody buys an expensive light, has lousy looking corals but then needs to emotionally justify their purchase. The manufacturers then provide psuedo science on their site claiming that a miniscule spectral band with 5% the radiometric output of the relevant 450nm peak grows better corals.

You assume too much about *me* and I don't argue over the internet. I also won't bash vendors, but I have had leds that don't perform. That is all.

 

[G Santana]

I am sitting here reading through all these posts and I am laughing because I agree with most of it.
I am not cheap, but I just can't see paying for bells and whistles when less can in some cases give you more.
I have been away from the hobby for 20 years and b4 starting my tank I have done alot of reading and YouTube surfing to CATCH UP on what I have missed and i have learned alot.
So far i have opted for CBB lighting, I have seen what some reefers have achieved and I am impressed.
Buying a new skimmer, no. I built one many years ago and I plan on using it, it worked well then I see no reason to sinking 300-400 for a current version.
Buying a 400-600 plastic CO2 chamber, no I built one for under $100.
Don't get me wrong. If equipment advances my tank to places I can't get to without it, I will buy it as I have a commitment to the tank. But In alot of cases you can do more or equal with less.

Point in case, top of the line dual stage CO2 regulators run several hundred bucks before you finish tuning it for reef purposes. But with the help of several people on this site, I was able to source a regulator and fittings for a fraction of the price
Look I love looking at peoples well tuned and automatically regulated tanks with all the bells and whistles.
I just don't need that, but I will always tip my hat to those who use the latest and greatest and have thriving tanks.

 

[pjr]

Blasterman has been a debunker on LEDs since the early emergence of that technology for reef tanks. i remember his pico builds with hand-built fixtures. It's been a while dude... remember coming to my house and measuring UV from my Sunbrite LED tubes?

Have you found issues with safety related to Chinese BBs? It seems fires are more prevalent with those devices than the more "overpriced " models.

 

[Mastiffsrule]

I forgot to say, the hobby were in is a rich man's hobby. We always have to take that into consideration

Dr. I am going to need a Prescription. I need a cure for what it says under my avatar than.