Palytoxin and bleach

[Myka]

I need to rid some rocks of brown Palys that are of the type typically associated as potential Palytoxin carriers. I am going to bleach the rocks to neutralize any Palytoxin that may or may not be present. The rocks are outside in a 5-gallon pail right now, and I left them outside overnight in freezing temperatures. I'm going to fill that pail now with water and bleach, and I'm just wondering how much bleach I need to use? I typically use 5% household bleach and add 1 mL per gallon of water to sterilize quarantine tanks or bleach old live rocks, is this enough to neutralize Palytoxin? I am thinking it will be plenty, but wondering if anyone knows (for sure) otherwise?

Tomorrow evening I'll bring the rocks inside, and pour the bleach-water down the drain, but I want to make sure any potential Palytoxin has been neutralized before I bring the rocks inside.

 

[Stigigemla]

I do not think bleach will destroy Palytoxin. Strong alkali like NaOH maybe.

 

[71xlch]

10℅ solution will destroy palytoxin. Let me see if I can find the paper.

 

[71xlch]

There are other resources out there but a quick Google turns up a bunch. For instance: https://www.google.ca/amp/saltwateraquariumblog.com/palytoxin/amp/?client=ms-android-bell-ca

 

[peter fumo]

“Palytoxin can be neutralized by soaking the coral for 30 minutes in a ≥0.1% household bleach solution (1 part 5%–6% sodium hypochlorite [household bleach] to 10 parts water, prepared fresh). Contaminated items should be soaked in diluted bleach before disposal.”

 

[ThreeAces_1]

To bad we're not closer,I would've put the rock into an angel tank they would've taken care of it for you

 

[Myka]

There are other resources out there but a quick Google turns up a bunch. For instance: https://www.google.ca/amp/saltwateraquariumblog.com/palytoxin/amp/?client=ms-android-bell-ca

“Palytoxin can be neutralized by soaking the coral for 30 minutes in a ≥0.1% household bleach solution (1 part 5%–6% sodium hypochlorite [household bleach] to 10 parts water, prepared fresh). Contaminated items should be soaked in diluted bleach before disposal.”

Thanks guys, I didn't find that article when I was looking. I did a Google search "Palytoxin bleach", and came up mostly with forum threads. CDC recommendations work for me - which is SIGNIFICANTLY more bleach than I was planning to use btw! Wow, that's 2L in a 5-gallon pail! Though 1:10 of 5% bleach is going to give you 0.5% solution, which is 5x their minimum recommendation. I think this recommendation is because the bleach will get "used up" and become less concentrated. I'm mixing up a fresh batch and adding all the rocks at once. I think I'll do 1:20 for a 0.25% solution, and use a smaller pail, and just add the ends of the rocks with the Palys attached. I'll neutralize with Sodium thiosulphate before dumping down the drain.

To bad we're not closer,I would've put the rock into an angel tank they would've taken care of it for you

Maybe your Angels would be poisonous then! Haha!

 

[Stigigemla]

I do not doubt this can clean tools but I cant imagine its enough to make the polyps safe to handle.
I will not be surprised if Palythoa can survive this. I had a stone with Palythoa I put in a bucket where my rest water from the osmosis comes. I thought 50 litres a day would dilute the poison enough. They were there for a few months in a temperature between 5 and 15 degrees celsius. And they survived that. Bleached - I could almost see through them but alive. If they still were poisonous I dont know.

 

[mfinn]

I have had to remove button polyps that have over grown live rock several times in the past.
What I do is to use 4 cups of bleach in 5 gallons of water and leave it for 24 hrs.
It will dissolve most of the matter, but a second round is usually needed.
After all the palys are gone, do a soak in freshwater with a strong dechlorinator.

 

[Myka]

You guys may be right...8 hours in bleach and the polyps haven't dissolved yet even though the rocks are quite white!

 

[tom39]

To rid rock of any organic matter, I use muriatic acid at a concentration of 5-10% depending on the severity of the infestation. For the average soak (5%), I add 32oz of acid to 5 gallon of water and let it cook for 12-24hrs or until it stops bubbling. Then I run the garden hose into the bucket to dilute the solution. Afterwards, I use a high pressure hose to blast away any remnants of organic material.

 

[mfinn]

You guys may be right...8 hours in bleach and the polyps haven't dissolved yet even though the rocks are quite white!

When the first round of bleach doesn't finish the job, then do a second round.
When I've used a strong muratic acid solution I've lost more rock than organic matter.
I actually completely dissolved a large rock and still had a mass of organic matter floating in the bucket.

 

[Stigigemla]

I have used a small amount of muratic acid do diminsh the phosphate in misused live rock. Of course practically everything in the rock dies so I have to soak the rocks in tap water for a few weeks before it is clean.
Change all the water as fast as it begins to smell or get a skin on the surface. After about two weeks the water stays clear with no skin or smell and then it is ready.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The chemical structure of palytoxin makes it fairly susceptible to being destroyed by bleach.

 

[Myka]

The chemical structure of palytoxin makes it fairly susceptible to being destroyed by bleach.

Yes, that's what I've concluded from my reading. I don't think there is any palytoxin left even though the polyps are still visible unless the polyp encases the palytoxin keeping it safe from the bleach?? Not sure if they could "create" more if they survive? I imagine they could/would. These particular Palys I think are past their expiry date. Hehe.

At this point, they've been in bleach for several days, and frozen a bunch of times (currently -15C). They're in a block of ice right now though, and I can't look at the polyps, but I'm sure they're dead.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I'm sure they're dead.

Probably. lol

 

[Myka]

@Randy Holmes-Farley , given the chemical structure of palytoxin, would drying rocks out for several months destroy the toxins?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

It will naturally degrade over time (by air oxidation and other reactions), but I would not assume it is sufficiently gone.

 

[Myka]

Ok, thank you. Someone locally claims palytoxin poisoning after rock was dried for a year (inside or outside, not sure), and I thought it was a bit far-fetched, but maybe not.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have no idea how likely it is, but I can't rule it out.