Palytoxin Thread Apology.

[HolySmoke]

@Mellotang I want to apologize for how I reacted to what you wrote. It was uncalled for and although I don't agree with your opinion, I asked for people share their first hand experience with Palytoxin poisoning and you did just that so thank you and again I'm sorry.

That being said I think it is important to remember that there are so many unknowns. Posts that assume and generalize all Paly of this type are the cause, or It only happens when you scrub rocks or frag, etc etc.. It will go away after a couple hours. I just think it is irresponsible and untrue. As you can see from the posts there were a wild variance in the cases some posted couple hours of distress and others 7 days of hell. The poison control said some people tolerate it a lot better than others. That alone is a huge variable and why going to ER is always the safest bet.

People can have differing opinions but I also wanted to stress the fact that YOUR reaction, level of exposure, strength of the palytoxin might not be the same as someone else's.

Poison control guided the doctors through everything and was an amazing suggestion someone made. Saved a lot of time trying to explain to the doctors what palytoxin is and what a palyathoa is.

Mods can close this if they want but I had to apologize and clear the air.

 

[fishguy242]

hi,what did they give you? how are you guys doing?

 

[HolySmoke]

I want to stress this is what we experienced and your situation maybe conpletely different. We are both doing better but still here.
They ran a bunch of blood test twice. Gave me a bag of IV and my wife Two. We both were extremely Tachycardic and had a fever when we got here. My RHR is normally very low. In fact 2 years ago I had a vasovagal episode fainted and needed staples in my head. We both had elevated White blood cells and My CKG levels were very high. according to Poison control Palytoxin typically breaks down your muscles. My wife's levels were normal however. Both of our EKGs came back normal and both of our chest x-rays were fine although we had chest tightness. covid tests came back negative. They gave us this medicine and it made a feel a million times better as per recommendation of Poison Control. Basically it is like motrin with better anti inflammatory properties. Atleast this is what I was told.

 

[HolySmoke]

We are finally home and so far we are all feeling better. Including my boy duke! Thanks for all the help and advice.

 

[brandon429]

I have a question

in a hobby thats forty or so years old, why did all this begin about five years ago

how did we go so long with not one person at the local fish store mentioning issues with toxins

twenty years daily at the lfs, handing out crates of brown palythoids and not one customer feedback ever, not a single one, multiple cities


are any blood tests being used to prove paly toxin occurred, such as gas chromatography or are they using contextual diagnosis. I’m legit curious to know these details

I guess one possible answer could be today’s sourcing of reef materials brings in orders more palytoxin than in the past, that could explain something not occurring for forty years and then occurring in 2015 onward

the sand rinse thread is fifty pages of takedown cleaning, no issues, is there a risk in that action based on these new trends?

 

[TerraFerma]

I have a question

in a hobby thats forty or so years old, why did all this begin about five years ago

how did we go so long with not one person at the local fish store mentioning issues with toxins

twenty years daily at the lfs, handing out crates of brown palythoids and not one customer feedback ever, not a single one, multiple cities


are any blood tests being used to prove paly toxin occurred, such as gas chromatography or are they using contextual diagnosis. I’m legit curious to know these details

I guess one possible answer could be today’s sourcing of reef materials brings in orders more palytoxin than in the past, that could explain something not occurring for forty years and then occurring in 2015 onward

the sand rinse thread is fifty pages of takedown cleaning, no issues, is there a risk in that action based on these new trends?

Extremely good question but would be better on a separate thread of its own

 

[HolySmoke]

I have a question

in a hobby thats forty or so years old, why did all this begin about five years ago

why has not one person I’ve ever known in reefing online or in chat ever had this happen, and that’s at least twenty thousand reefers, serious question not being contrite

twenty years daily at the lfs, handing out crates of brown palythoids and not one customer feedback ever, not a single one, multiple cities

also
are any tests being used to prove paly toxin occurred, such as gas chromatography in these headline cases or are they using contextual diagnosis. I’m legit curious to know these details

I guess one possible answer could be today’s sourcing of reef materials brings in orders more palytoxin than in the past, that could explain something not occurring for forty years and then occurring in 2015 onward

the sand rinse thread is fifty pages of takedown cleaning, no issues, is there a risk in that action based on these new trends?

That is a good question Brandon but I guess we could ask the same question about Dinoflagellates. Is there anyway to prove what Me my wife and dog had was Palytoxin poisoning? Of course not. Do I think it was a coincidence that my tank was moved yesterday and my wife and I handled a bunch of corals, followed by textbook polytoxin symptoms. No chance.

Painful Cough like we were choking on our own air, terrible headache, fever, chills, aches, weakness, respiratory issues with all in the house including the dog and I had diarrhea.

Carbon Monoxide poisoning and Covidnwas ruled out. If you have another idea of what it could have been I'm all ears.

 

[HolySmoke]

Extremely good question but would be better on a separate thread of its own

I think it is a great thought provoking question. In Europe for instance they are convinced that Dinoflagellates are caused from corals expelling them due to lighting intensity and spectrum. In my experience I have run into dinos when water clarity greatly increased/large reduction in nutrients too fast. I'm not saying this is fact just what I have read and my personal experience. Maybe one could make the argument that these strong LEDs with near UV diodes promote or possibly trigger through stress palys to produce stronger or secrete more Palytoxin.

 

[brandon429]

I guess if there aren’t any blood tests avail for it the contextual clues are the best we have to go on. clearly it was serious no doubt I just wasn’t sure if they had tests for the toxin yet, they will pretty soon if not currently ill bet

 

[HolySmoke]

It's also very possible that many people had been poisoned but didnt even know what palytoxin were let alone connected the dots. It would be very difficult to catch if it was airborne and not handled. In my case I'm pretty sure we had both. Many people probably thought they caught the flu. I mean I moved my tank yesterday and handled a bunch of paly zoa and it still took me a while to figure it out. I agree that contextual clues are all we have to go on but our case and timeline is pretty telling atleast in my eyes of the realness and power of palytoxins.

 

[DucatiGtr]

I have a question

in a hobby thats forty or so years old, why did all this begin about five years ago

how did we go so long with not one person at the local fish store mentioning issues with toxins

twenty years daily at the lfs, handing out crates of brown palythoids and not one customer feedback ever, not a single one, multiple cities


are any blood tests being used to prove paly toxin occurred, such as gas chromatography or are they using contextual diagnosis. I’m legit curious to know these details

I guess one possible answer could be today’s sourcing of reef materials brings in orders more palytoxin than in the past, that could explain something not occurring for forty years and then occurring in 2015 onward

the sand rinse thread is fifty pages of takedown cleaning, no issues, is there a risk in that action based on these new trends?

There are way more people in the hobby now, more paly and years ago where would you ever read such a story without the Internet
Also maybe some people got sick and thought maybe it’s just the flu or cold who knows..
I was very very sick dying once w this.. another time it was light and lasted only a few hours..
many variables to go w it I guess.
I also had a member come by telling him my story and he said “well I just scrubbed zoa/paly off my rock”
Sure enough he posted a few days later he was in the hospital and his wife and dog were sick.. i wonder if it was the person in that other article,

 

[brandon429]

But on fair counter point not once has the compound been identified, in blood or serum to me that’s amazing. Usually medicine is pinpoint accurate. It seems fair to say folks are ~90% sure

thats the best we can do currently it seems. I know Dr’s wouldn’t entertain the notion if it was impossible. Is it true there is no test for it whatsoever?

 

[HolySmoke]

Very good point and that's why awareness and airing on the side of caution is always best. I read an article they first isolated palytoxins in 1961 in Hawaii. So 40 years ago it was just being found out by scientists. You can bet your last dollar hobbyists where clueless for a long while after that.

Your story was the most powerful and enlightening as to how bad it can actually be. Thank you for sharing. I included some important information I was reading.

 

[brandon429]

has paly toxin ever been identified in blood or tissues in one of these events

especially the gentleman from Dallas, the headlines had his issue confirmed nearly immediately they said.

 

[HolySmoke]

We noticed while in the hospital one of my wife's hands were very red and she was complaining that her fingers were numb. Neither one of us had any open cuts that we can see with our naked eye atleast.

 

[brandon429]

I do fully believe that m. marinum poisoning and bacterial issues are a risk with reef surfaces agreed.

 

[HolySmoke]

has paly toxin ever been identified in blood or tissues in one of these events

especially the gentleman from Dallas, the headlines had his issue confirmed nearly immediately they said.

another good question and I dont know for certain but I would say yes. The article states if it gets into the bloodstream it is possibly fatal. I have those exact Grandis in my tank pictured below. Typically referred to among hobbyist as "piano keys grandi" I believe.

 

[brandon429]

Is that a med journal snippet

*no doubt about the compound itself just wondering about medical journal inspections for cases if any
The zoanthid forum on any reef board seems to be a fair source of data tracking on trends, personal devastations

there’s over ten years worth of info on some and then compounded from former site logs, many years.

reefs.org was about 19 yrs old when it closed down, not one post on the whole site for the matter= wow

 

[HolySmoke]

@brandon429 I edited that post to include more info about palys pictured. It is from MASNA .org

 

[HolySmoke]

Is that a med journal snippet

*no doubt about the compound itself just wondering about medical journal inspections for cases if any
The zoanthid forum on any reef board seems to be a fair source of data tracking on trends, personal devastations

there’s over ten years worth of info on some and then compounded from former site logs, many years.

reefs.org was about 19 yrs old when it closed down, not one post on the whole site for the matter= wow

Yea I didn't fact check it and it's definitely not an official scientific publication but it looks like more of a summary that took snipets from different publications. Nonetheless it was enlightening and my wife did in fact have redness at the site and numbness to further back up the contextual diagnosis. My dog also did vomit and I counted 30 breaths in about 30 seconds. Normal is about 30 a minute, it was scary and I felt helpless because we were also symptomatic.

I just found a good publication I am going to read Brandon if you want to check it out.