PAR in the Wild at Depth

[wranodj]

No wonder my bta’s migrate to the top.

 

[Dana Riddle]

You can also roughly calculate this using physics equations based on per square meter energy output of sunlight (at the equator). and then just add the coefficient of absorption in water. No matter how you do it the energy of the sun on shallow reefs in clear water in equatorial zones is pretty astonishing. Corals are simply able to acclimate to our tanks.

If you don't have a PAR meter but a have manual dSLR and an image editing program that can show RGB channels try this: take a picture outdoors of a neutral white target. Now take a picture of your tank at those same manual settings. Now look at the blue channel in Photoshop. Since RGB camera sensors center around 450nm this gives you a decent relative comparison to how much blue light the outdoor target is getting compared to your tank.

A similar procedure was suggested in the early 90's by John Tullock (if memory serves.) Thanks for sharing!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think it is not possible to simulate natural light ( intensity and color temp). For example at a depth of 10 m a coral of 50cm will have +- 5% less PPF (Photosynthetically Active Photon Flux Density) at its base as at its top. In an aquarium, depending on the light source used, simulating 10 m dept ( intensity and color temp) at the bottom of the tank where the coral grows the difference in PPF between base and top will be a lot different as is in nature wich assumes a coral in captivity will grow into another shape for harvesting light energy.

 

[oreo54]

I think it is not possible to simulate natural light ( intensity and color temp). For example at a depth of 10 m a coral of 50cm will have +- 5% less PPF (Photosynthetically Active Photon Flux Density) at its base as at its top. In an aquarium, depending on the light source used, simulating 10 m dept ( intensity and color temp) at the bottom of the tank where the coral grows the difference in PPF between base and top will be a lot different as is in nature wich assumes a coral in captivity will grow into another shape for harvesting light energy.

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

 

[Larry L]

Just a thought, but shouldn’t these graphs be better interpreted to say the best par levels for btas is between 350 and 250 par? That show the highest concentration of organisms, between 11 and 20 meter, according to graph on the right. The curve in left hand graph indicates par of 350 to 250. Since nems can move freely one could assume their light needs are best met where they Are most concentrated. No?

That was my first thought as well, after looking at those graphs. Assuming amount of light is the driving factor for where they like to be, and not something else like temperature, current, food availability, etc.

 

[oreo54]

That was my first thought as well, after looking at those graphs. Assuming amount of light is the driving factor for where they like to be, and not something else like temperature, current, food availability, etc.

Yea but using "max PAR" doesn't exactly describe the range you are capable in an aquarium..
DLI is probably better.
As a guessitmate w/ peak PAR at 300 x 5/7 = 214 PAR
Over a normal 12 hr day that's a DLI of 9.2...

So that is all one needs in this case...

214 PAR for 12 hours.......

Here is the formula for calculating DLI with a quantum meter.

1. μmol m-2s-1 x (,3600 x photoperiod) / 1,000,000 = DLI.
2. - μmol m-2s-1 is a reading, or averaged readings, from the quantum meter.
3. - 3,600 is the number of seconds in an hour.
4. - Photoperiod is the period (in hours) of light exposure per 24 hours.

If one turns the graph sideways you see plenty of colonies at even lower "par" regardless of depth. As low as 100 par is quite populated...No accounting for "growth" or "health" of course..
Obviously the micro habitiates are sig. lower than err "free water par"..

Just as I see it...

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I think it is not possible to simulate natural light ( intensity and color temp). For example at a depth of 10 m a coral of 50cm will have +- 5% less PPF (Photosynthetically Active Photon Flux Density) at its base as at its top. In an aquarium, depending on the light source used, simulating 10 m dept ( intensity and color temp) at the bottom of the tank where the coral grows the difference in PPF between base and top will be a lot different as is in nature which assumes a coral in captivity will grow into another shape for harvesting light energy.

KYOCERA Develops World's First Full-Spectrum LED Aquarium Lighting; Innovative technology mimics sunlight at specific underwater depths; designed to optimize growth of corals and marine plants | News Releases | KYOCERA

Kyocera announced that the company developed the world’s first full-spectrum LED lighting for aquariums.

global.kyocera.com

Even the best light source can not mimic nature in an aquarium. Trying to mimic the color temp and intensity at dept is in my opinion not possible as the Photon Flux absorption will be different at a depth of 10m as it will be in an aquarium of 80cm due to the water density ( pressure). Also, the reflection index of the surface water layers will influence the result. Supposing one is able to mimic the light conditions of nature at 10m depth on the bottom of the tank, the light situation at the bottom +50cm will differ from nature at a depth of 9m50. Corals may grow differently towards the light.

 

[Reefahholic]

I’ve always felt that we’re over lighting our corals. Yes, some Acropora seem to love higher light, but I feel the majority do not. The quality of light we get from our man-made reef lighting just cannot replicate the quality of light that comes from the Sun. Combine that with the turbidity of seawater and our super filtered reef tanks, and you can imagine that most of us are cooking our corals too much. Let’s look at the tissue of a SPS that I had in 500 PAR. Despite heavy feeding and lots of nutrition going into the tank daily you can see the tissue was being cooked way too much. This wasn’t primarily under LED’s either. This was under a ATI PowerModule with LED’s set to 20% and T5’s set at 100% during peak photo period for 4 hours. As a result it slowed the growth significantly. The corals in the bottom of the tank outgrew those in the higher light and looked much healthier to me. I had one that was being shaded under the overflow box that was growing much better on the shaded side vs the higher PAR side. I agree with Dana and don’t believe corals need as much light as we think they do.

 

[Reefahholic]

I got this Red Planet from a higher light Acro tank. It was in 400+ PAR.

I put it in about 200 PAR near the bottom of the tank and it instantly took off.

 

[Reefahholic]

Thanks, @oreo5457 ! I remember Dana had addressed this in some article somewhere but didn't know where off the top of my head.

Overall the data looks pretty consistent between those two articles. (again, the Kona coast Dana surveyed is, and this Aqaba site appears to be, an area with pretty clear water).

FYI, here's what things look like at about 23m (roughly 350 PAR in open water) at Honanaunau, one of Dana's sites, in a video filmed mostly with ambient light by Dr. Bruce Carlson. Note that by this depth, as with most places in Hawaii, most of the coral cover IIRC is Porites compressa, an endemic species, with appearances of very common globablly distrubited species like Porites lobata and Pocillopora eydouxi.

The video says 21.5 meters or 70 feet. Where did you get the PAR numbers?

 

[Prince23]

So I have this article about PAR and BTA/bubble time anemones / entacmaea quadricolor at depth.

I'm especially interested in this chart.

Am I interpreting it correctly in saying:

- PAR in open water at 0m is like 1800 (as we generally measure this in the reef hobby) on a presumably clear day around noontime. It goes down to 600 PAR at 10m, and only gets to 300 (something many people recommend as a "high amount of light) at around 30m. (which is already quite deep. You'll start seeing relatively few photosynthetyic corals by this depth)

- PAR at even 40m at this site (Aqaba, Jordan - I presume with very clear water, much like the Kona Coast or places like Osprey Reef in the Coral Sea where there's been a lot of "mesophotic reef" research) is still around 150.

(this is actually what I'm most interested: how to roughly capture a certain form of reef ecosystem in the aquarium. In this case, if I wanted a "mesophotic biotope" with the cnidarians you might find at such sites at 40m - e.g. acropora enchinata, granulosa, carduus, BTAs - I might want to keep PAR at no less than 150 for at least a few hours a day. Assuming that the specimens I get from, say, ORA can actually be adapted to thrive in such light levels, which is a completely separate question.

- BTAs can be found in areas that have from 50-700 PAR at noontime in the wild

- ergo, the amount of PAR that most hobbyists strive for in our tanks is actually not that much compared to a wild reef in ideal clear light conditions. (I won't go into the question of "should we seek 1000 PAR for, say, Acropora millepora, and how long we should do so", because I think that question is basically settled by practical experience)

So I gotta get in on this!! As we all strive and work, to do what Mother Nature does!! That big ol sun!!! Yeah. So as as grower(master) over 25 years in dwc. Our parameters are the absolute same!!! For growth, life (Yes some differences in above ground to below but if you do the math the same ) but one is the same on every note. It’s called light!!! And I will be the first too say par meters are absolutely junk!!! I have a very expensive one. That is and will collect dust!! Read your reef/ plant whatever your growing. Because coral is one of them!! Happy or sad. Instead of spending tons of useless money on a meter put it into your lighting!!! Recreating the sun is crazy hard. And if you telling me that in 10m the sun is only 600 par. Common!!! Let’s be real. 99.9 percent of people use the wrong lighting!! And give the coral or plant 50% of what they need!! They look at numbers instead of their growth and what the real sun is putting out. And I’ll tell you with water magnification it’s much greater!!!! Maybe it’s a rant!!! But this par meter thing should be banned. So to dianna riddle I would say get your facts straight.!!! The sun is life. You can not recreate it I’ve learned!! To the reefing community!!! Please don’t waste your time!!!! Remember that old saying kiss!! and you will have what you want. And more. Lol sorry for the rant hahha I spent the 4K on a par meter for my plants/reef and it’s total bunk!!!

 

[Shooter6]

So I gotta get in on this!! As we all strive and work, to do what Mother Nature does!! That big ol sun!!! Yeah. So as as grower(master) over 25 years in dwc. Our parameters are the absolute same!!! For growth, life (Yes some differences in above ground to below but if you do the math the same ) but one is the same on every note. It’s called light!!! And I will be the first too say par meters are absolutely junk!!! I have a very expensive one. That is and will collect dust!! Read your reef/ plant whatever your growing. Because coral is one of them!! Happy or sad. Instead of spending tons of useless money on a meter put it into your lighting!!! Recreating the sun is crazy hard. And if you telling me that in 10m the sun is only 600 par. Common!!! Let’s be real. 99.9 percent of people use the wrong lighting!! And give the coral or plant 50% of what they need!! They look at numbers instead of their growth and what the real sun is putting out. And I’ll tell you with water magnification it’s much greater!!!! Maybe it’s a rant!!! But this par meter thing should be banned. So to dianna riddle I would say get your facts straight.!!! The sun is life. You can not recreate it I’ve learned!! To the reefing community!!! Please don’t waste your time!!!! Remember that old saying kiss!! and you will have what you want. And more. Lol sorry for the rant hahha I spent the 4K on a par meter for my plants/reef and it’s total bunk!!!

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter!

 

[Prince23]

T

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter!

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter!

So here the 8 radions I have the other two not showing because I’m doing a water change atm or as we speak lol. My par meter!! do you really want to play that game hahah I’ll show you purchased several years ago!! Yeah things were a little more. Not that it’s old or crap it is what it is. Junk. I specifically purchased it for growing plants!!! As I said earlier I have been growing reef and plants since Christ was a cowboy. Lol. What details would you like!! Ph! Cal! Alkaline! And now I’m forced to dig up this piece of crap so you can say ohhh darn. Would you like the receipt too sure I can produce it too. Just saying I don’t speak out of my colo!! Or just for kicks

 

[Prince23]

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter!

10 g5 xr15’s 8 blues 2 pros!!! 6 Nero 5 0 filters just using as water movers hahah tunze skimmer!! Have 2 blues not showing as I’m doing little maintenance and need room too move

 

[Prince23]

1st post pics of your reef.
2nd post pics of your setup, lights ect with detailed info.
3rd post a pic and details of this 4k par meter!

Opsira is my par unit unit lol and I was wrong it was $ 3300 Canadian!!!! My bad it was just under what I said. But if it’s a **** fight!! I drive a little Chevy that is 20” lifted and my tires worth what you make in a year. Ohh and the Jaguar I won’t even get into. It’s not about!! Who’s is bigger my friend and show me yours!! It’s helping one another!! So let’s keep it this way. The very truth is we underlight our tanks and take a meters truth!!! Do you actually know how hot it is on any reef ( great barrier) and how many lumens the reef actually gets!! I’ll wait!! I have had this discussion with multiple and at the end!! We as humans can not still understand the actual life the sun screams at us. Much love not trying to be rude in any way. And hoping I’m not expressing like that.

 

[JNalley]

Not at all - the article in the first post is relative the depth in m and Danas article - the PAR value is relative the depth in feet (1 m = 0.3 feet) IMO the article you refer too seems not be true - 300 PAR at 40 m - I do not believe in that! @Dana Riddle - please read through it and say what you think.

Sincerely Lasse

1m - 3.3 feet, not 0.3 feet

 

[Shooter6]

So here the 8 radions I have the other two not showing because I’m doing a water change atm or as we speak lol. My par meter!! do you really want to play that game hahah I’ll show you purchased several years ago!! Yeah things were a little more. Not that it’s old or crap it is what it is. Junk. I specifically purchased it for growing plants!!! As I said earlier I have been growing reef and plants since Christ was a cowboy. Lol. What details would you like!! Ph! Cal! Alkaline! And now I’m forced to dig up this piece of crap so you can say ohhh darn. Would you like the receipt too sure I can produce it too. Just saying I don’t speak out of my colo!! Or just for kicks

All I see is a very dark blue tank with rock. No coral ect. I assume a bad picture taker?
My questions were to see what your actually producing with your claimed wisdom.
I have been growing coral since 1988, never seen a 4k par meter on the market for reef use.

Ilk give you an example of why a par meter is not junk.
I set up a new 1200gal system. My lights, ledzeal mirage x200 blue are 17 inches above the water. And set at 40% per channel now. After having issues, and contemplating adding additional light, I did a par/pur/Kelvin test. I currently have 290-301 par on the bottom of my 400g, 500-550 at mid and 700+at the top.
Originally I was running at 60% per channel and had about 550 on the bottom.

I lost about 8k in highend frags due to this.
This system is about 10 months old and is getting stocked with only high end pieces. Ill post pics of my last system too.

 

[Lasse]

PAR meters for air does not work in water - they will give the wrong number - especially if you run heavy in blues.

1m - 3.3 feet, not 0.3 feet

My bad you are right

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Shooter6]

Opsira is my par unit unit lol and I was wrong it was $ 3300 Canadian!!!! My bad it was just under what I said. But if it’s a **** fight!! I drive a little Chevy that is 20” lifted and my tires worth what you make in a year. Ohh and the Jaguar I won’t even get into. It’s not about!! Who’s is bigger my friend and show me yours!! It’s helping one another!! So let’s keep it this way. The very truth is we underlight our tanks and take a meters truth!!! Do you actually know how hot it is on any reef ( great barrier) and how many lumens the reef actually gets!! I’ll wait!! I have had this discussion with multiple and at the end!! We as humans can not still understand the actual life the sun screams at us. Much love not trying to be rude in any way. And hoping I’m not expressing like that.

You obviously don't know chit about the barrier reef, redsea reef or the indo reefs. I have actually dove them , by your punk attitude I know you have not.

Your one of those little yappers who think they know everything, so don't learn chit from people with real knowledge

 

[Prince23]

1m - 3.3 feet, not 0.3 feet

It was a matter of speech!! A little exaggeration!! My bad. Your taking simple

All I see is a very dark blue tank with rock. No coral ect. I assume a bad picture taker?
My questions were to see what your actually producing with your claimed wisdom.
I have been growing coral since 1988, never seen a 4k par meter on the market for reef use.

Ilk give you an example of why a par meter is not junk.
I set up a new 1200gal system. My lights, ledzeal mirage x200 blue are 17 inches above the water. And set at 40% per channel now. After having issues, and contemplating adding additional light, I did a par/pur/Kelvin test. I currently have 290-301 par on the bottom of my 400g, 500-550 at mid and 700+at the top.
Originally I was running at 60% per channel and had about 550 on the bottom.

I lost about 8k in highend frags due to this.
This system is about 10 months old and is getting stocked with only high end pieces. Ill post pics of my last system too.

beautiful set up!! And I’ll say yes pics are not the best lol my bad. But… in that mix of your discussion you said you lost 8k!! You if your the part meter guy then I will say this too you. Your not using the correct setting/ lumen for your grow!!! I sent you the exact meter I’m using I think you can now pick it up for like 7K it’s German.(opsira) I purchased it because I grow over 20mil worth of marry Jane every 2.5 months. Not sure if you know Canopy, aphria, few others, yeadda yeadda. This is where I learned do not trust the par meter!!! Under your canopy it much different!!!! I understand lighting and plants/coral it’s what I’m paid for. But what works for one does not mean it will work for another. But if I were you I would be looking at spectrum!! Not par!!! Go under the water and sit there for hrs!!! Tell me about the heat and how the sun is crazy. lol it’s photosynthesis!!!!