Peroxide only reef ?

[vingallo]

Never mind

Is Hydrogen Peroxide safe in water? - Oxyl-Pro

One of a broad variety of water treatment chemicals, hydrogen peroxide is used as a disinfectant and biocide.

www.oxylpro.com

What are the Benefits of Using Hydrogen Peroxide in Water?​

Hydrogen peroxide works as a high-level disinfectant. It reacts very quickly, disintegrating into hydrogen and water without leaving any by-products. This process increases the amount of oxygen in water.

The free oxygen radicals then decompose the pollutions, leaving only water. These free radicals will both oxidise and disinfect, and hydrogen peroxide eliminates proteins through oxidation.

It is used to disinfect drinking water due to its high oxidative and biocidal efficiency.

There are various benefits from using hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant in water treatment:

• It leaves no trace of chemical residues because the peroxide decomposes fully
• It is biodegradable because it disintegrates into water immediately
• It removes any odours in water caused by hydrogen sulphide gas
• It cleans organic deposits from irrigation systems
• It is environmentally safe, as it does not pollute water or contaminate soils.

 

[Spare time]

That is really not bad advice However in my experience, I would need either a very large fuge or an export vessel that grows VERY rapidly which = a lot of trimming = maintenance. I really believe that most fuges are either too much work, if they grow at the right pace, or are undersized as they sit in small portions of sumps beneath a tank. Otherwise you are not wrong and it is good advice to get to "low-er" maintenance.

I just put the refugium in the skimmer section. I ran a no water change 75 gallon with 8 or so fish with multiple feedings a day to both fish and coral with just a refugium, socks, and carbon

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I assume that organic waste compounds will be broken down as ox occurs.
Why is phosphate unaffected by ozone or peroxide, you reckon equilibrium cannot be reached by the organisms that consume it in the tank ?
I am uncertain that phosphate is a good example of your point as you would not know if there is too much or too little phosphates in any tank, do you assume it just accumulates over long time periods ?

Expectation from Ozone or Peroxide = decomposition of "pollutants" by free oxygen radicals, its intended purpose is true chemical filtration eliminating a need for a skimmer, sump, socks...


I am open to being wrong, please help me better understand the fault in my logic or understanding.

Some of your assumptions are not correct, IMO. You may want to consider exactly what all of the methods we use accomplish, and what we do them. We often use ozone and some use peroxide, and folks doing so do not find that a magic recipe to stop using anything else (algae filtration, skimming, organic carbon dosing, activated carbon, etc.). We understand what we do and why we do it.

I believe the idea that organics are significantly removed is a misunderstanding both for ozone and peroxide. That is not why water gets less yellow. It is because the chemical structures that cause yellowing are easily oxidized from one organic to another that does not absorb light. But they are still there. Most of us (including myself) who use ozone also still skim and many (including myself) also use GAC. I show published scientific supporting data for these assertions in my ozone articles.

Phosphate can accumulate in reef tanks when foods bring in more than is removed. You can argue about the methods ir need to remove it, but it clearly happens and ozone cannot reduce it. Neither can bacteria if any significant amount of N is exported by denitrification, leaving the tank with excess P over N.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Is Hydrogen Peroxide safe in water? - Oxyl-Pro

One of a broad variety of water treatment chemicals, hydrogen peroxide is used as a disinfectant and biocide.

www.oxylpro.com

What are the Benefits of Using Hydrogen Peroxide in Water?​

Hydrogen peroxide works as a high-level disinfectant. It reacts very quickly, disintegrating into hydrogen and water without leaving any by-products. This process increases the amount of oxygen in water.

The free oxygen radicals then decompose the pollutions, leaving only water. These free radicals will both oxidise and disinfect, and hydrogen peroxide eliminates proteins through oxidation.

It is used to disinfect drinking water due to its high oxidative and biocidal efficiency.

There are various benefits from using hydrogen peroxide as a disinfectant in water treatment:

• It leaves no trace of chemical residues because the peroxide decomposes fully
• It is biodegradable because it disintegrates into water immediately
• It removes any odours in water caused by hydrogen sulphide gas
• It cleans organic deposits from irrigation systems
• It is environmentally safe, as it does not pollute water or contaminate soils.

The above statements are simply not correct for seawater and should not be accepted as fact in that setting. Its the sort of marketing stuff that claims a product does everything good and nothing bad.

For useful information, I suggest looking to real science, not advertising copy.

As a clear example, copper is reduced from cupric forms to cuprous forms by hydrogen peroxide added to seawater.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030442030990055X

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Are you asking me to describe the process of oxidation when ozone or peroxide are applied to a water column ?
That information is available online.
Is there something I am missing from your line of questioning, please help me better understand your point I am very curious and your insights may really enrich this conversation.

Awaiting your response.

Perhaps he is asking you to justify your statement about removing organics and to expand on what happens to the left over bits. I know the answer, but unless you think through the whole process and get real data, it is just hand waving.



Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


A small section of a larger one From the first article;

Oxidation of Organics by Ozone: Decoloration

---

The oxidation of organics is, it turns out, the primary reason that reef aquarists use ozone because it is the organic material in seawater that causes clarity and color issues. Its impact on organic materials is also why ozonation impacts skimming. While most organic compounds that are exposed to enough ozone for a long enough period will be oxidized in some way, some are very much more sensitive than others. In fact, at the levels of ozone attained in a typical reef aquarium contact chamber (less than about 0.3 ppm ozone) or even disinfection applications where the doses are much higher, the total dissolved carbon does not appreciably change during the ozone exposure (although it may later if bacteria find the newly oxidized organics more bioavailable; see below).

In a marine mammal pool,18 for example, it was found that disinfection with 4 ppm ozone with a 30 minute contact time (a disinfection level much higher than is typically used in reef aquaria) did not reduce the pool's total organic carbon (TOC) (~13 ppm TOC), while the use of granular activated carbon (GAC) did reduce it by 37%. Interestingly, the combination of ozone and GAC was even more effective, removing 60-78% of the TOC, suggesting that the ozonation may have altered some of the molecules in a way that made them bind more strongly (or more rapidly) to GAC. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out involves biological transformations of the organic compounds taking place on the GAC surface as it became colonized with bacteria).

One research group19 studying the reaction between a variety of organic compounds and ozone concluded:

"…comparisons of rate constants with chemical structures of the reacting groups show that all reactions of O3 are highly selective…"

Fortunately, many of the organic compounds that are most reactive with ozone coincidently are those that aquarists want to eliminate from aquaria. As seawater ages in marine aquaria, the water often becomes yellow as a wide variety of different organic pigments build up. Because of the ozone's reaction with many natural pigments, it is often used in drinking water purification for the purpose of "decoloration;" not organic removal per se, but decoloration.20

In order to understand this effect, it is first instructive to understand which organic molecules lead to coloration, because not all of them do. In fact, most organic molecules are not colored. That is, they do not absorb visible light. Looking through bottles of purified organic compounds, the vast majority are white powders. Organisms, however, have a significant need to absorb light, for example, to photosynthesize or to see.

In order to generate molecules that absorb visible light, natural systems often turn to conjugated carbon-carbon double bonds. Figures 1 and 2, for example, show the structures of chlorophyll and b-carotene. Both of these molecules are widespread in organisms, and both contain conjugated double bonds that lead to the absorption of visible light. These figures do not show the hydrogen atoms (there are dozens of them), but all of the other atoms are shown, and there is a carbon at each intersection of two or more lines. This is how chemists often show structures, allowing the important features to stand out and not get lost in a clutter of atomic letters. What is important here is each segment with a C═C (shown in red). Without going into ridiculous chemical detail for a reef article, having a bunch of C═C bonds arranged together with a single C─C bond between them can lead to the absorption of visible light. That is why organisms have developed such chemical structures for the absorption of light despite their instability toward oxidation (see below).

 

[d2mini]

I know this very outside of the norm, but it is something I have been considering for a while now and would love to have some input from experienced reefers, folks who have achieved ultra low maintenance or who have experience with peroxide/ozone.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

I think sometimes people try to reinvent the wheel in hope of simplifying, when all it ends up doing is making things more complicated, if not now, then down the road.

Decades of successful reefkeeping have shown us that sticking to the basics is the best setup for success.
A tank, a sump, and a skimmer, plus some sort of mechanical filtration be it a sock, foam block, etc, and water changes is easy and careful choice of inhabitants will make it a "low maintenance" tank. I put that in quotes because if you want a successful reef tank, there's going to be some maintenance no matter what. But keep it simple and smart and maintenance can be kept on the lower side.

 

[vingallo]

Perhaps he is asking you to justify your statement about removing organics and to expand on what happens to the left over bits. I know the answer, but unless you think through the whole process and get real data, it is just hand waving.



Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 1: Chemistry and Biochemistry by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 2: Equipment and Safety by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

Ozone and the Reef Aquarium, Part 3: Changes in a Reef Aquarium upon Initiating Ozone by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


A small section of a larger one From the first article;

Oxidation of Organics by Ozone: Decoloration

---

The oxidation of organics is, it turns out, the primary reason that reef aquarists use ozone because it is the organic material in seawater that causes clarity and color issues. Its impact on organic materials is also why ozonation impacts skimming. While most organic compounds that are exposed to enough ozone for a long enough period will be oxidized in some way, some are very much more sensitive than others. In fact, at the levels of ozone attained in a typical reef aquarium contact chamber (less than about 0.3 ppm ozone) or even disinfection applications where the doses are much higher, the total dissolved carbon does not appreciably change during the ozone exposure (although it may later if bacteria find the newly oxidized organics more bioavailable; see below).

In a marine mammal pool,18 for example, it was found that disinfection with 4 ppm ozone with a 30 minute contact time (a disinfection level much higher than is typically used in reef aquaria) did not reduce the pool's total organic carbon (TOC) (~13 ppm TOC), while the use of granular activated carbon (GAC) did reduce it by 37%. Interestingly, the combination of ozone and GAC was even more effective, removing 60-78% of the TOC, suggesting that the ozonation may have altered some of the molecules in a way that made them bind more strongly (or more rapidly) to GAC. An alternative explanation that cannot be ruled out involves biological transformations of the organic compounds taking place on the GAC surface as it became colonized with bacteria).

One research group19 studying the reaction between a variety of organic compounds and ozone concluded:


Fortunately, many of the organic compounds that are most reactive with ozone coincidently are those that aquarists want to eliminate from aquaria. As seawater ages in marine aquaria, the water often becomes yellow as a wide variety of different organic pigments build up. Because of the ozone's reaction with many natural pigments, it is often used in drinking water purification for the purpose of "decoloration;" not organic removal per se, but decoloration.20

In order to understand this effect, it is first instructive to understand which organic molecules lead to coloration, because not all of them do. In fact, most organic molecules are not colored. That is, they do not absorb visible light. Looking through bottles of purified organic compounds, the vast majority are white powders. Organisms, however, have a significant need to absorb light, for example, to photosynthesize or to see.

In order to generate molecules that absorb visible light, natural systems often turn to conjugated carbon-carbon double bonds. Figures 1 and 2, for example, show the structures of chlorophyll and b-carotene. Both of these molecules are widespread in organisms, and both contain conjugated double bonds that lead to the absorption of visible light. These figures do not show the hydrogen atoms (there are dozens of them), but all of the other atoms are shown, and there is a carbon at each intersection of two or more lines. This is how chemists often show structures, allowing the important features to stand out and not get lost in a clutter of atomic letters. What is important here is each segment with a C═C (shown in red). Without going into ridiculous chemical detail for a reef article, having a bunch of C═C bonds arranged together with a single C─C bond between them can lead to the absorption of visible light. That is why organisms have developed such chemical structures for the absorption of light despite their instability toward oxidation (see below).

Thank you for kindly providing these articles to help set straight my understanding of how Ozone actually works, the chemistry, and observed results which are all well sourced. I have read through the first one so far but will continue reading the rest. Really appreciate it!

 

[vingallo]

I think sometimes people try to reinvent the wheel in hope of simplifying, when all it ends up doing is making things more complicated, if not now, then down the road.

Decades of successful reefkeeping have shown us that sticking to the basics is the best setup for success.
A tank, a sump, and a skimmer, plus some sort of mechanical filtration be it a sock, foam block, etc, and water changes is easy and careful choice of inhabitants will make it a "low maintenance" tank. I put that in quotes because if you want a successful reef tank, there's going to be some maintenance no matter what. But keep it simple and smart and maintenance can be kept on the lower side.

It is nice to dream of a tank the runs off of nothing but flow and peroxide or ozone, based on the articles above there is a multitude of reasons why this dream is unlikely to be a reality.

The youtuber I referenced -> has achieved precisely what I am speaking of with Ozone contrary to the science in the articles linked, my curiosity was if the same may be achieved with Peroxide only. His deployment of Ozone is innovative, it is an elegant solution to flow + ozone delivery.

I am not saying he is wrong nor that the science is bogus, but it is interesting to consider why his long running reef works. It shouldn't based on the readings linked previously but it does, the why is the interesting bit as is the bit about replicating this with peroxide hence the reason for my post.

What a rabbit hole.

 

[King Reef]

Ultra low = no sump, ato , grow algae in tank with mushrooms , soft corals , rbta, rock flower corals selective with lps etc . Dose by hand every once and a while. water change as needed. Add a power head, heater and internal filter hidden in rock .

 

[rtparty]

I don’t mean this in the condescending tone it will likely come out in but having that tank is extremely simple and not anything impressive. Most softies will live in the toilet if you want.

I watched about half of that video and there is so much misinformation it got exhausting. Again, I’m not meaning to come off as rude or on my high horse. If that type of tank speaks to you, you should 100% go for it.

I personally don’t understand the “no maintenance” some want. Like buying a dog and saying I want to never take care of it. Why?

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Perhaps he is asking you to justify your statement about removing organics and to expand on what happens to the left over bits.

*She

And thank you

 

[Righteous]

There are some nice pico reef bowls that I’ve seen that are very low maintenance, and often beautiful (more so than the video’s tank in my opinion). They usually consist of nothing more than water changes and feeding. They will often use peroxide spot treatments for specific algae issues.

It’s likely he’s picked hardy species, and has nothing to do with peroxide and ozone.

Natalia's 5 Year Old Pico Reef Bowl - March 2021 Featured Reef Aquarium

Congratulations to community member natalia_la_loca and her 1.75 gallon pico reef bowl for being selected for our March 2021 Reef Profile! This fascinating low maintenance reef bowl has now reached its 5th anniversary, an impressive milestone for any reef tank, especially one this unique. In this...

www.nano-reef.com

Coral Magazine also had an issue about them many years ago:

CORAL Magazine New Issue “MICRO REEFS” Inside Look

A preview of articles and images in the new issue of CORAL, The Reef & Marine Aquarium Magazine, January/February 2018.

www.reef2rainforest.com

 

[d2mini]

I don’t mean this in the condescending tone it will likely come out in but having that tank is extremely simple and not anything impressive. Most softies will live in the toilet if you want.

I watched about half of that video and there is so much misinformation it got exhausting. Again, I’m not meaning to come off as rude or on my high horse. If that type of tank speaks to you, you should 100% go for it.

I personally don’t understand the “no maintenance” some want. Like buying a dog and saying I want to never take care of it. Why?

I was about to say the exact same thing and it speaks exactly to what I was saying earlier about stocking smartly.
Most of what he has in that tank (just looking at the thumbnail) grows like weeds.

 

[MartinM]

Crazy idea inspired by some videos I have seen of one person running ozone only filtration successfully.

The idea:
-90 Gallon corner tank mixed reef
-Softy/LPS dominated w/ few fish
-1 pound per gallon LR, 4 inch sand bed,
-lots of Flow,
-Triton system dosing.
-Zero Sump, Zero mechanical filtration, Zero Skimmer,
-Weekly water changes from start tapering back over first 2 years as tank matures with goal to eventually get to Zero water changes.
-Hydrogen Peroxide dosing 2ml per 10 Gallons or 18ml daily

The idea is to achieve a truly ultra low maintenance system.

I know this very outside of the norm, but it is something I have been considering for a while now and would love to have some input from experienced reefers, folks who have achieved ultra low maintenance or who have experience with peroxide/ozone.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

Crazy idea inspired by some videos I have seen of one person running ozone only filtration successfully.

The idea:
-90 Gallon corner tank mixed reef
-Softy/LPS dominated w/ few fish
-1 pound per gallon LR, 4 inch sand bed,
-lots of Flow,
-Triton system dosing.
-Zero Sump, Zero mechanical filtration, Zero Skimmer,
-Weekly water changes from start tapering back over first 2 years as tank matures with goal to eventually get to Zero water changes.
-Hydrogen Peroxide dosing 2ml per 10 Gallons or 18ml daily

The idea is to achieve a truly ultra low maintenance system.

I know this very outside of the norm, but it is something I have been considering for a while now and would love to have some input from experienced reefers, folks who have achieved ultra low maintenance or who have experience with peroxide/ozone.

Please share your thoughts. Thanks.

Doesn’t seem odd to me. I have a 1000L system with only ozone and DSB. I consistently have to feed a lot and still dose nitrates to keep nutrients up. I don’t use a skimmer either.

 

[Bruce Burnett]

The lowest maintenance with the least filtration is simple. Requires you to live at the ocean a plus. Requires clean ocean water. Pump water from ocean to tank for a continuous water change. Still have glass to clean and pumps to maintain, but may still have parasites and other problems.

 

[Mark Gray]

I am following along, I run Ozone I also run a skimmer and a fudge. I see some things I want to come back and reed here lol

 

[atoll]

I have run the following for many years now.
Skimmer
Algae Turfs Scrubber.
Oxydator utilising hydrogen peroxide.
No direct particulate removal as in no filter wool, socks or roller mat.
My results speak for themselves.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I have a 20+ year old reef - no water changes ~7 years now. No skimmer for 5, but just added one back in. No fuge, no ATS

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

*She

And thank you

Sorry.

 

[taricha]

A comment on uses and limitations of peroxide (in addition to the scientific articles linked already) Jay Hemdal did an article where several of the hypothetical applications of peroxide were actually tried in aquarium settings.
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/hydrogen-peroxide-bench-testing.803/
(available in pdf form at that link as well)

oxidizing organics away (bleaching/cleaning), treating cyano, treating GHA, changing water ORP / O2, etc.
these were all checked and peroxide was found to be somewhat useful and somewhat limited for most of those tasks. So check out that article.

(aside: I think it would be fun to work out if it's possible to use H2O2 as an additive to a system where the power has been lost to keep O2 levels from going too low. That would require knowing the breakdown rate which would depend on what organics/enzymes the H2O2 ran into. Too complicated to be actually useful, I think)

Anyway. If I were aiming for a "zero maintenance" system, I would focus the effort on automating generous water changes. Because that + an Alk doser pretty much handles everything you really need to care about, and seems to me far simpler than other pathways to "zero maintenance."