Peroxide only reef ?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

FWIW, this is the pure diffusion experiment I was referring to:

Diffusion of oxygen into still sea water

Bucket experiments were conducted to measure the rate of diffusion of oxygen into sea water, stripped of dissolved oxygen to about 1 mg/1, of "homogeneous" salinity of <tex xmlns:mml="http://www.w3.org/1998/Math/MathML" xmlns:xlink="http://www.w3.org/1999/xlink">26-30\permil</tex> and with a...

ieeexplore.ieee.org

“Abstract:Bucket experiments were conducted to measure the rate of diffusion of oxygen into sea water, stripped of dissolved oxygen to about 1 mg/1, of "homogeneous" salinity of 26-30\permil and with a "stable" temperature gradient. In five successive tests, the water required about 60 hours, under calm laboratory conditions, to exceed 7 mg/1 at all depths in the bucket. Results of these tests indicated input of oxygen to be much more rapid than expected from molecular diffusion of the Fickian type, giving a diffusion coefficient of 6 \times 10^{-3} cm 2 sec -1 compared to 2 \times 10^{-5} cm 2 sec -1 . It is suggested that evaporation in the thin water layer at the air/ water boundary increases the salinity sufficiently to initiate the transfer of oxygen from the atmosphere into sea water by convective movements, even in the presence of a stable temperature gradient and in the absence of turbulence”

 

[DCR]

I can add that hydrogen peroxide can be dosed in industrial wastewater biotreatment systems to boost dissolved oxygen concentrations during hot summer months. These are heavy air blown systems with large BOD loads (high oxygen consumption). I can easily believe it could sustain an aquarium during a power outage when there is very limited surface diffusion from a stagnant system. Also keep in mind that you are providing pure oxygen with peroxide rather than 21% with air so it does not have to compete with nitrogen for solubility in water.

 

[Lasse]

I assumed we were talking about a device added O2 near the top only.

Nope - oxydators are placed at the bottom

Sincerely Lasse

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Sorry.

No worries

 

[Lasse]

No worries

Not linked to the discussion but I wonder if there is any gender neutral word for third person in English? I know about "guy" in american english but is there any other third person pronoun? In modern Swedish we have han (he), hon (she) and hen (gender neutral) - is there any similar pronouns in English?

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

Fish certainly drive some movement. A study showed it takes 60 h for O2 to diffuse from the top to the bottom of a bucket of seawater.

Regardless the point is why one would think a point source of O2 can get O2 across a tank when the whole tank top cannot. That question remains no matter what type of movement we are talking about.

Overall, I am skeptical of claims it helped, which sound remarkably similar to claims that Seachem Prime saves fish from ammonia.

I have seen micro bubbles exit the oxydator horizontally and travel away from the oxydator with larger bubbles (still small) exit vertically from the bottom of the aquarium. They don't just stay still.
Like I say I am.not the only one to report success in reviving fish were oxygen depletion was present in the aquarium. I am.not privy to the science but the manufacturers call it super oxygen similar way to ozone.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also keep in mind that you are providing pure oxygen with peroxide rather than 21% with air so it does not have to compete with nitrogen for solubility in water.

Just to clarify, nitrogen does not compete with O2 for solubility. Oxygen at 0.2 atmospheres will dissolve the same amount in water whether there is any N2 present or not. That effect is called Henry’s law.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Nope - oxydators are placed at the bottom

Sincerely Lasse

Ok, that was my misunderstanding. I can see them working much better in a power failure in that location if bubbles are released.

 

[atoll]

Ok, that was my misunderstanding. I can see them working much better in a power failure in that location if bubbles are released.

Sorry, I thought we had discussed Oxydator's how they work and where you position them in other threads in the past on here. I thought you were familiar with the undermental workings of the Oxydator.

I have more interest in the results than the science of Oxydator's. Few of us are in the position to carry out true scientific experiments. What most tend to do is try something and if it works proclaim it. That's what most hobbiest do I guess.

I have been using Oxydator's for around 40 years in many different reef tanks and even in my pond. The results are always the same. That is all I really have to go on and that of the many others who use them in their aquariums as reported in the Oxydator user group and other groups even on R2R.

On the question of doubt. Strangely enough I was reading something on a completely different subject, music as it happens. This is what the interviewee had to say on the subject of doubt which I find very appropriate.

"To have doubt only means you are searching for more answers, for more reason, digging a little deeper. If you take something in complete faith then there is nowhere to go. To have doubt does not mean you have to be suspect or mistrusting. For some reason (probably to keep people in line) to have doubt is often connected with something negative. I do not think it is negative I think it is positive."

She went on to say however, there care extremes which are negative.
I like an open mind but value my own experiences as most do. That is where my faith in Oxydator's come from.

Sorry for the ramble, I will shut up now.

 

[Lasse]

I have doubt of some of the explanations how it works but not of the effect itself. IMO - its not only oxygen gas that leave the oxidator - its also H2O2 itself if concentration and amount of catalysts is high enough. IMO - H2O2 degradation may not be as fast as believed in saltwater. Pers communication with people working with peroxide treatment of farmed salmon (against sea louse) has indicate that the half time of H2O2 is longer than believed among aquarists. There is some studies of the breakdown rate and - unlucky for us - there are no consistent results. One technical report from Canadian of Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences (2014) show up a lower breakdown rate in raw sea water compared with filtered sea water. Total opposite to earlier investigations. However - its clear that it is not 1 to 2 hours that have been mentioned.

These graphs are from https://publications.gc.ca/collections/collection_2014/mpo-dfo/Fs97-6-3080-eng.pdf Read it - it is an interesting article

Temp in fig 3 is 10 degree C

10 degree C even in these graphs

​

If you use a oxidator - rather much of the peroxide will be catalyst into O2 already before it reach the water column. Principles of an oxidator. Original from Lasse

​

Its a rathe smart dosing system there the dose is determined by H2O2 concentration and amount of internal catalysts. In my 80 gallon aquarium I normally use 12 % H2O2 (high) and 3 catalyst (a lot) and it result into a dose of around 25 ml 12% H2O2 a day. I would not recommend to dose 25 ml 12% peroxide a day of pure H2O2 - not either recommend the high dose I use. i will go down with it in the future.

This paper may be of interest too - its not the whole paper but some very interesting highlights


Sincerely Lasse

​

 

[Lasse]

When I try to answer questions I often doe a Google search to see if my understanding is up to date. Sometimes I just stumble upon goodies. Since long time ago my most important reason for having a huge circulation is that it helps the coral to be rid of excess Oxygen species during heavy photosynthesis. When I found an article that state things like this - from this https://bg.copernicus.org/articles/11/4587/2014/bg-11-4587-2014.pdf - I feel good

Corals subjected to strong currents were shown to be less susceptible to bleaching (Nakamura and van Woesik, 2001;Smith and Birkeland, 2007). This observation was taken to suggest that, under strong currents, the coral thin diffusive boundary layer enables rapid ROS release and prevents oxidative damage (Nakamura, 2010). To the best of our knowledge, our findings of flow-induced H2O2 release from corals,although measured under no-stress laboratory conditions,provide the first “hard evidence” of this hypothesized flow induced ROS removal.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[DCR]

Just to clarify, nitrogen does not compete with O2 for solubility. Oxygen at 0.2 atmospheres will dissolve the same amount in water whether there is any N2 present or not. That effect is called Henry’s law.

This is not true. I am a chemical engineer by profession for 40 years and well familiar with Henry's Law. When there is an excess of oxygen and nitrogen (bubbling through water), an equilibrium exists between the water, oxygen and nitrogen in the liquid and gas phase and if there is less oxygen in the gas phase, there will be less oxygen in the water. Otherwise, there would be no advantage to injecting pure or enriched oxygen into biotreatment systems (which Lasse noted and is sometimes practiced to improve performance). I can assure you that if you were to bubble nitrogen gas with only a small amount of oxygen into an aquarium you would suffocate your fish as the oxygen would be displaced with nitrogen.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Not linked to the discussion but I wonder if there is any gender neutral word for third person in English? I know about "guy" in american english but is there any other third person pronoun? In modern Swedish we have han (he), hon (she) and hen (gender neutral) - is there any similar pronouns in English?

Sincerely Lasse

"Dude" is usually a good choice

 

[ISpeakForTheSeas]

Not linked to the discussion but I wonder if there is any gender neutral word for third person in English? I know about "guy" in american english but is there any other third person pronoun? In modern Swedish we have han (he), hon (she) and hen (gender neutral) - is there any similar pronouns in English?

Sincerely Lasse

"Guy" and "dude" both work; "they" can be used as a gender-neutral, third-person pronoun as well, and it can be used a bit more broadly than guy or dude (it's a bit unwieldy if your not used to using it as a singular pronoun though).

For example, if someone asked you where John Doe is, you could say, "They went to the fish store."

 

[Lasse]

This is not true. I am a chemical engineer by profession for 40 years and well familiar with Henry's Law. When there is an excess of oxygen and nitrogen (bubbling through water), an equilibrium exists between the water, oxygen and nitrogen in the liquid and gas phase and if there is less oxygen in the gas phase, there will be less oxygen in the water. Otherwise, there would be no advantage to injecting pure or enriched oxygen into biotreatment systems (which Lasse noted and is sometimes practiced to improve performance). I can assure you that if you were to bubble nitrogen gas with only a small amount of oxygen into an aquarium you would suffocate your fish as the oxygen would be displaced with nitrogen.

Is this the reason why very small amount of oversaturated nitrogen gas cause divers bend in fishes (in fish i named bubble disease)? If air will be sucked in into a pump from the suction side - a little overpressure on the pressure side cause a slight supersaturation of nitrogen in the pressure pipe causing diver bends (bubble disease) on fishes when it comes out in a tank (or aquarium) with atmospheric pressure

However a construction like this below that add pure oxygen into the pressure side of a tube system does not cause the bend or bubble disease even if the water is 200 % oversaturated when it comes out in the tank. Syreberikat vatten = oxygen rich water; Gas inlopp = gas (oxygen) inlet; övertrycksskydd = overpressure protection; Trycksatt kammare = pressurized chamber and syrefattigt vatten = deoxygenated water

If you use this construction for pressured air - dude you will run into problems with capital letters

By the way Nitrogen gas partial pressure in air is around 4 times higher than oxygen gas partial pressure

Sincerely Lasse

 

[atoll]

Yes Lasse my own thoughts has been that not all peroxide is broken down before it leaves the Oxydator. As I don't use particulate filtration then my aquarium might be considered dirty not that it looks it at all. However, perhaps you can see more micro spots of detritus in the water compared to those using various forms of mechanical filtration. It does not do to over administer peroxide either with quantity or strength administered. The Oxydator helps to prevent such overdosing.

 

[atoll]

"Dude" is usually a good choice

Not linked to the discussion but I wonder if there is any gender neutral word for third person in English? I know about "guy" in american english but is there any other third person pronoun? In modern Swedish we have han (he), hon (she) and hen (gender neutral) - is there any similar pronouns in English?

Sincerely Lasse

Not in the UK, we have him her he she or for altogether them or those. I can't think of a single pronoun for a 3rd sex or one that includes all apart from the above. There may be but if there is it isn't widely used. Sometimes the word mate may be used but that is more often used to a man even if he is not your mate. No offence intended.

 

[Lasse]

Not in the UK, we have him her he she or for altogether them or those. I can't think of a single pronoun for a 3rd sex or one that includes all apart from the above. There may be but if there is it isn't widely used. Sometimes the word mate may be used but that is more often used to a man even if he is not your mate. No offence intended.

Hen is not used as a third sex - is used when you do not know the sex of the person you talk about. In the old Sweden without nickname on the net or not Swedish names it was easy to understand the sex with help of the persons fore name. Today - not so easy. We use hen instead.

If you talk directly to a person - no problems - we use Du as you use you. Our version of mam, sir, Mrs, Miss and Mr disappear like a rocket in the late sixties/early seventies.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

This is not true. I am a chemical engineer by profession for 40 years and well familiar with Henry's Law. When there is an excess of oxygen and nitrogen (bubbling through water), an equilibrium exists between the water, oxygen and nitrogen in the liquid and gas phase and if there is less oxygen in the gas phase, there will be less oxygen in the water. Otherwise, there would be no advantage to injecting pure or enriched oxygen into biotreatment systems (which Lasse noted and is sometimes practiced to improve performance). I can assure you that if you were to bubble nitrogen gas with only a small amount of oxygen into an aquarium you would suffocate your fish as the oxygen would be displaced with nitrogen.

What I wrote was exactly correct, but let's be sure we are agreeing on what scenario we are discussing before making additional claims about who was wrong. I think we are now saying the same thing with different word choices.

Henry's Law makes it clear that only the partial pressure of the gas involved determine how much dissolves. The amount of other gases present does not factor in.

"Henry's law is a gas law that states that the amount of dissolved gas in a liquid is directly proportional to its partial pressure above the liquid. "

Henry's law - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thus, if the partial pressure of oxygen above seawater is about 0.2 atmospheres (normal O2 content), then the amount of O2 that dissolves is around 7 ppm.

What does not matter is how much N2 happens to be present. if the N2 is 0 atmospheres, 0.8 atmospheres (normal air) or 10 atmospheres (under substantial pressure), the amount of O2 that dissolves is the same. The N2 DOES NOT compete with the O2 for space.

If we agree on that basic tenant of gas laws, then we have no further disagreement.

But when you stated:

"Also keep in mind that you are providing pure oxygen with peroxide rather than 21% with air so it does not have to compete with nitrogen for solubility in water."

I was focusing on the word "compete", which literally is not what happens. O2 is not competing with N2 for space, it is just that the pressure of O2 is not 1 full atmosphere.

Again, if we agree on that we are all good to go.

The reason I an drilling in on this is because there are many other situations where solubility of one thing impacts another for a variety of different reasons, and these things periodically come up in chemistry forum discussions about things like dosing solutions and what can and cannot be combined (e.g., vodka in kalkwasser).

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Sorry, I thought we had discussed Oxydator's how they work and where you position them in other threads in the past on here. I thought you were familiar with the undermental workings of the Oxydator.

I have more interest in the results than the science of Oxydator's. Few of us are in the position to carry out true scientific experiments. What most tend to do is try something and if it works proclaim it. That's what most hobbiest do I guess.

I have been using Oxydator's for around 40 years in many different reef tanks and even in my pond. The results are always the same. That is all I really have to go on and that of the many others who use them in their aquariums as reported in the Oxydator user group and other groups even on R2R.

On the question of doubt. Strangely enough I was reading something on a completely different subject, music as it happens. This is what the interviewee had to say on the subject of doubt which I find very appropriate.

"To have doubt only means you are searching for more answers, for more reason, digging a little deeper. If you take something in complete faith then there is nowhere to go. To have doubt does not mean you have to be suspect or mistrusting. For some reason (probably to keep people in line) to have doubt is often connected with something negative. I do not think it is negative I think it is positive."

She went on to say however, there care extremes which are negative.
I like an open mind but value my own experiences as most do. That is where my faith in Oxydator's come from.

Sorry for the ramble, I will shut up now.

I know we discussed them many times, and while I still disagree on some of the claims, I had always pictured them at the top of the tank rather than the bottom for no apparently appropriate reason. Sorry about that. lol