Phosphate RX killed my yellow tang :(

HiddenUser

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As the title states, Phosphate RX killed my fat and healthy 2 year old yellow tang. :( I have been going through a fluconazale treatment and noticed a rise in my phosphates from unreadable to .079 (per my Hanna Check). The treatment says 6 drops per 10 gallons will reduce phosphates by .5. So I did .5 / .079 and figured I'd need about 1/6 (at the most) of the dosage to drop my phosphates.

I went with 1/8 of the dosage and dripped the phosphate RX into my filter socks. Tank was cloudy which is suppose to be normal...I then went and checked on the tank about a half hour or so later and my fat and previously happy yellow tang was on the bottom, leaned up against the glass breathing hard...I scooped him out and threw him into a hospital tank...2-3 hours later he was dead. Bummed because I got him when he was a little guy or girl and he / she was pretty much a model citizen of my tank...I never saw him acting aggressively towards any fish. Mostly minded his own business and grazed on the algae clip all day.

I did some more research and found that a number of people have reported having issues with the Zebrasoma species and Phosphate RX. I'm not sure why this is unique to them, but it seems that I'm not an isolated incident of this outcome when using Phosphate RX. All of my other fish, coral, inverts etc had no problems with the treatment...

If you're going to use this stuff and have Zebrasoma specieis of tangs, BE CAREFUL!
 
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Did you run it through a 10 micron filter sock? If not it can definitely cause respiratory issues for the fish and filter feeders.

I was using the BRS felt filter socks, which appear to be 200 micron socks...ugh!

Either way, be careful with this stuff. I've seen video reviews that state it's very safe and that you shouldn't have any problems with using it.
 

Breadman03

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The main thing is that one needs to filter out the precipitate, which is most easily done with a fine filter sock. I forget the micron suggestion. I used 1 micron socks, but they were a bit smaller than what was suggested.

I used SeaKlear Commercial, which is a lanthanum chloride product for the pool industry. I fed tank water into it at about the rate of a water fountain and had diluted a few ml of the SeaKlear into a couple gallons of DI that I dosed over the course of about a day.
 

Elegance Coral

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Lanthanum chloride is NOT safe IMHO.
It's effects are not restricted to Zebrasoma species either. I've personally seen it kill clams, and make Naso tangs very ill.
It does not remove phosphate from the system unless it is slowly dripped into a very fine sock, (~5 micron) and the sock is then removed. Otherwise, it simply creates precipitate, that remains in the system, and can later break down to release phosphate back into the water.
IMHO, there are much safer and easier ways to maintain a low phosphate level. I would never use this in one of my systems.
Peace
EC
 

celebrityovernight

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Lanthanum chloride is NOT safe IMHO.
It's effects are not restricted to Zebrasoma species either. I've personally seen it kill clams, and make Naso tangs very ill.
It does not remove phosphate from the system unless it is slowly dripped into a very fine sock, (~5 micron) and the sock is then removed. Otherwise, it simply creates precipitate, that remains in the system, and can later break down to release phosphate back into the water.
IMHO, there are much safer and easier ways to maintain a low phosphate level. I would never use this in one of my systems.
Peace
EC
Lanthanum chloride is absolutely safe if performed correctly. The key is dripping it slowly into a fine (5-10 micron) filter sock. Cloudy water is a clear indication that you are dosing too much, too fast. Public aquariums all use it for phosphate control in their large tanks. In big systems, it is much more cost effective to run LC than GFO.
 

reeffish

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Last night I dosed Phosphate RX at 3 drops per gallon! Everything this morning is fine...never mess with your tank when tired! I added 600 drops to a 200 gallon system, water was cloudy but clear 16 hours later. I find it hard to believe that this killed your fish.
 

greg 45

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A quick lesson in reducing phosphate. Take 10 ml of dirty tank water . Put in one drop of any of these product's . Shake well and let it sit. You will find on the bottom of the vile what you are trying to catch with a filter sock. This if very fine like baby powder. Also if you want to sit there and see how long it takes to bind to the po4 , you will see how and why it can crash a tank . Also kill fish as it will get into the fish system.
 

Rob Lion

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Firstly to the OP, I am truly sorry for their loss, it's horrible to ever lose a tank mate.

But I've used liquid Reef Safe grades of Lanthanum Chlorides for over a year now with absolutely no issues whatsoever... but note what I just said..... reef safe grades, like Phosphate RX, ATM Agent Green, NTLABS Anti-Phos, NOT just any old lanthanum chloride designed for the pool or horticultural environments with unknown concentrations/additives etc.

All reef safe LC has very clear and easy to you instructions on them as to how much and how to dose etc, and provided the user follows the instructions and uses a little common sense there are no issues, and is a lot easier and cheaper to do that even using GFO.

With my feeding, my tank gains 0.015 ppm PO4 a day, all I have to do is drip dose 0.2ml (10 drops) of LC to lower my PO4 back to zero per day in my 250 Litre tank. I dose it at night when the fish are sleeping.

Issues relating to the use of any reef safe LC are normally because of not reading and following the instructions correctly, especially how much to dose, knowing your actual water volume, as accurate as possible PO4 testing, or due to dosing it where your livestock is active and them "breathing" it in while its still at a high concentration.

If you see your water go cloudy you are dosing too much too fast!


Once the reef safe Lanthanum is bound to the phosphate, it doesn't break down.... why would it? to do so you would need a major change to your water chemistry to do that, with a major increase in acidity and lowering of the pH, that increase in acidity and lowering of pH would kill anything long before the lanthanum would detach from its phosphate.

I literally drip the LC into the display tank just before the overflow down to my sump, 1 drop at 10 second intervals, where it then precipitates with any phosphates in my water and gets skimmed out by my protein skimmer. I don't run a 5 micro filter.... or any filter sock, anything that bypasses the skimmer will settle out in the sump and gets siphoned out when i clean out the bottom of my sump every month.

If Phosphate RX, ATM Agent Green, NTLABS Anti-Phos were not safe, everyone that ever uses them wouldn't have any livestock left... sadly it is down to misuse that the issues are caused.

It's probably true too that some fish / inverts etc may be more susceptible than others to overdosing/dosing too quickly.
 
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greg 45

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I have been using pool grade for years no issues. What and how is reef safe lanthanum , just because there is a name on the bottle that doesn't make it reef safe in my opinion. Also there has been no known proof that these fine particles that bind up do not release phosphates back into the aquarium . I think I will try another test in my vile and confirm in a week or so to see if the po4 count returns . And no I am not a chemist by far . Have you tried my test to see how long it takes to bind up the po4. and turn into a powder .
 

Rob Lion

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I have been using pool grade for years no issues.
that's great, clearly you see the benefits of using LC, but pool grade LC is for swimming pools, fresh water with chlorine etc, on it's label it doesn't say how much to use in a salt water aquarium. You don't know what concentration it is at, or what other elements/molecules or compounds it may have in it that could be harmful to a reef tank. Personally I wouldn't use it, I'd rather pay a little more for something I know IS reef safe.

What and how is reef safe lanthanum , just because there is a name on the bottle that doesn't make it reef safe in my opinion.
You are correct, just having reef safe on the label doesn't make it reef safe, what does make it reef safe is that their LC product is specifically manufactured and tested by major players in the reef keeping hobby/industry and their name is on it. If the product didn't work or killed you fish when used as directed, it wouldn't just hurt their LC sales, it would cripple their entire multi-product and service businesses.
Reef safe LC also contain other ingredients (minerals), such as flocking agents so that it also produces more likely than not calcium carbonate fine particles to help the Lanthanum Carbonate clump together and be filtered / skimmed out more easily. that's why if you read the reef safe versions they state to monitor calcium levels, as calcium in your tank will deplete due to this flocking. Lanthanum Chloride works as an organic ion exchanger, highly selective toward calcium and phosphate ions.

Also there has been no known proof that these fine particles that bind up do not release phosphates back into the aquarium .
if that's true, anyone that uses these product would at some point see sudden and unexpected phosphate level rises in their tank, which again would trash the companies good name let alone crash their users tanks, opening them up to all sort of legal issues, especially from the main users of LC in the industry such a large open to the public aquariums etc.

I think I will try another test in my vile and confirm in a week or so to see if the po4 count returns .
sorry, your test is pointless... i dose 10 drops of LC (Agent Green) into my 250 Litre tank to reduce PO4 by 0.015 ppm, adding 1 drop to only 10ml of water proves only that you have absolutely overdosed that sample. That means that not all the lanthanum chloride will become lanthanum phosphate due to insufficient phosphates being available, but will produce lanthanum carbonate, a fine white dust indistinguishable from calcium carbonate and that acts also as a flocking agent. Also, with a 10ml sample, that isn't enough sample to test a before and after dosing tests, and any test kit you do use will have a significant margin of error. I use a Hanna Phosphorous ULN checker, and even that still has a margin of error of ±5 ppb ±5% of reading, 5ppb = 0.015ppm phosphate.
 

Vanmo92

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I killed mine with about 1/8 of a dose as well, the only time I dosed directly into the tank. Ive since gotten another one and continue using phosphate rx as I did for a long time before that incident and dose it into the top of my skimmer, never more than 2 drops at a time or twice a day, in an 80 gallon system. Im very cautious with the stuff now, it still works in very low doses, and seems to be yellow tang safe, just takes more patience.
 

melev

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I've been using it for years, as I mentioned in a recent video. I've had one of the Captive Bred hawaiian yellow tangs swim through it unaffected a couple of times, and I have a pair of wild caught Yellow tangs since 2011 that have been through it many times. As has my Purple, my Kole and my Naso.

Perhaps there was an interaction with the fluconazole treatment? The one thing I've heard but never tried to test for myself is an apparently drop in alkalinity. Some state if your tank's alk drops it could affect yellow tangs, apparently. I've never seen this happen.
 

Rick Saccoccia

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Sorry for your loss.

I too wonder if phosphate Rx killed my yellow tang. Tang looked distressed initially with other fish picking on him for being in their sleeping space. Then everyone worked things out and he was looking very healthy, all fins recovered, and eating well. We have tried two tangs (1st lasted 6 months and 2nd 1 month) in Red Sea 260 (56g display) and both have died next day after low dose of phosphate Rx. This dose was 16 drops. I have dosed similar or higher amounts without any issue. I know tank should ideally be 3 ft long or more instead 2 ft so we bought both tangs as small as possible. We had both fish dissected at LFS and conclusion was bacteria infection in stomach. My phosphates went from 0.07 to 0.05 after this dose and also replacing GFO. The goal was to lower phosphates and maintain with GFO since increased amounts of GFO were only maintaining levels. I replace 1 of 2 bags in rack in back of tank with 1 cup of GFO every 3 days which is getting expensive. Considering adding a phosban reactor.

I state all this to add my experiences. I am surprised phosphate Rx would cause this but I can’t rule it out. Ideally I should be using micron sock as others suggest but I have been relying on protein skimmer to remove phosphates that have bonded with it. My water does get cloudy for a few hours as the instructions say to expect.

Phosphates 0.07ppm
Alkalinity 8.4 dkh
Calc 421 ppm
Mag 1440 ppm
pH 8.3
Nitrates 25-35ppm
Salinity 1.0255 SG
Temperature 78.2

Also note that that I have been slowly increasing carbon dosing levels to control nitrates, very unsuccessfully. Started with 5ml and have slowly increased amount each week for daily dose. Daily dose now at 47ml of white vinegar after 3 months. I maintain about 25ppm with Salifert test. I have been doing 25% to 35% water changes religiously every 2 weeks. Sometimes trying 2-3 back to back water changes across a few days in attempt to lower nitrates.
 
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Rick Saccoccia

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I've been using it for years, as I mentioned in a recent video. I've had one of the Captive Bred hawaiian yellow tangs swim through it unaffected a couple of times, and I have a pair of wild caught Yellow tangs since 2011 that have been through it many times. As has my Purple, my Kole and my Naso.

Perhaps there was an interaction with the fluconazole treatment? The one thing I've heard but never tried to test for myself is an apparently drop in alkalinity. Some state if your tank's alk drops it could affect yellow tangs, apparently. I've never seen this happen.

Thanks for all you do melev for the hobby. I have watched your videos on phosphate Rx and still believe it is a safe product. I will test again tonight but I believe my Alk has been stable. I just posted my recent tang loss experience which gives me hesitation for my size tank.
 

melev

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Sorry for your loss.

I too wonder if phosphate Rx killed my yellow tang. Tang looked distressed initially with other fish picking on him for being in their sleeping space. Then everyone worked things out and he was looking very healthy, all fins recovered, and eating well. We have tried two tangs (1st lasted 6 months and 2nd 1 month) in Red Sea 260 (56g display) and both have died next day after low dose of phosphate Rx. This dose was 16 drops. I have dosed similar or higher amounts without any issue. I know tank should ideally be 3 ft long or more instead 2 ft so we bought both tangs as small as possible. We had both fish dissected at LFS and conclusion was bacteria infection in stomach. My phosphates went from 0.07 to 0.05 after this dose and also replacing GFO. The goal was to lower phosphates and maintain with GFO since increased amounts of GFO were only maintaining levels. I replace 1 of 2 bags in rack in back of tank with 1 cup of GFO every 3 days which is getting expensive. Considering adding a phosban reactor.

I state all this to add my experiences. I am surprised phosphate Rx would cause this but I can’t rule it out. Ideally I should be using micron sock as others suggest but I have been relying on protein skimmer to remove phosphates that have bonded with it. My water does get cloudy for a few hours as the instructions say to expect.

Phosphates 0.07ppm
Alkalinity 8.4 dkh
Calc 421 ppm
Mag 1440 ppm
pH 8.3
Nitrates 25-35ppm
Salinity 1.0255 SG
Temperature 78.2

Also note that that I have been slowly increasing carbon dosing levels to control nitrates, very unsuccessfully. Started with 5ml and have slowly increased amount each week for daily dose. Daily dose now at 47ml of white vinegar after 3 months. I maintain about 25ppm with Salifert test. I have been doing 25% to 35% water changes religiously every 2 weeks. Sometimes trying 2-3 back to back water changes across a few days in attempt to lower nitrates.

I don't see how using Phosphate Rx at a lower dose could kill a yellow tang. I have two yellows in my 400g and they have been through Phosphate Rx treatments 4x to 5x per year since 2011. That's about 35 treatments. Their death post treatment the next day does seem like a viable conclusion, but it's strange. I'd definitely recommend the 10 micron socks (I have those in stock at all times, if you need them) since your tank has had a couple of bad experiences. Your system comes with a sump, right? Why are you doing anything "in a rack in the back of [the] tank"? A more likely culprit for your yellow tangs would be GFO 'fines' hitting their gills. 1 cup of GFO every three days is unreasonable and risky. I don't run GFO, haven't done so since 2005-2006. I hated the whole process of rinsing the GFO media until it ran clean, making sure the media didn't turn to a brick constantly, and having to clean out the reactor to refill it. Nine months of that was as much as I could tolerate. Once I learned about Phosbuster Pro, and later Phosphate Control/Phosphate Rx, I never ever looked back.

I tend to keep my Alkalinity higher, around 10 dKH. I did an Alkalinity test in my reef 20 minutes after a recent dosing (well over 200 drops) in my 400g system, and alkalinity didn't drop at all, which surprised me since I've read comments numerous times stating alkalinity could be compromised.

Your PO4 levels are so long, you really don't need to worry about them. I'm dosing my system when Po4 measures .5ppm. Anything under that is acceptable to me, but once it hits .5 (or higher) I'll dose.
 

ea2000

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This morning my absolutely healthy Yellow Tang was dead. I've had it for almost a year. It never had any issues, never had white spots, never got picked on by my other (healthy) fish. Today dead. The only thing I did differently yesterday was dose Phosphate RX because my PO4 was measuring 0.5. I almost never dose it. I probably used it one or twice in the last year.
Nothing else in my tank was affected: corals, inverts, other fish. Just my poor Yellow Tang.
Very suspicious.
 

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