Phosphate

[sangria517]

I have noticed over the past 3 to 4 months. My phosphate has slowly been rising. It was at about .4.5 and now it is crossed over to 1.0. I first tried a product by Aquaphor, which is basically their version of the vodka vinegar dosing. I was maxed out at 18 MLS per day and not really seeing any difference in my tank. So I switched over to the tropic Marin version, elmini np. My tank is getting the three ML’s daily, which is its max dose for its size in my phosphate. Still really haven’t budged. They are still at about 1.0. My nitrates when I tested them today were 43. Alkalinity was nine calcium was 425. I know traditionally phosphate and nitrate should not be that high. However I have no nuisance algae. The tank actually looks really good and if I wasn’t testing weekly just out of habit I wouldn’t even question anything going on. I have had a couple coral deaths over the past 4 to 5 months. I won’t say it was necessarily nutrition related however because some of the corals were ones I bought super cheap that were on their way out and I was just trying to see if I could score. Good coral for a cheap price and bring it back from the dead.
I’m inclined to leave everything alone as it looks good however, part of me feels guilty doing that because I feel like if I told any other reefer my numbers I would be shunned. Just looking for everyone else’s thoughts and opinions.

I do not feel like I overfeed my fish. They get fed once a day and they get fed essentially one and a half cubes of frozen food. I maybe do pellets once a week. I do have about 10 fish in the system, but they’re all young.

 

[exnisstech]

Elimi NP didn't do much of anything to reduce PO4 when I used it. Ive used GFO but always use less than the recommended amount so PO4 isn't reduced to quickly. Lanthanum chloride is another method but i have no experience and I do remember there are some precautions that need to be taken if using that.
That said there are many successful tanks that run what are considered high levels of PO4 and NO3 so....

 

[Red_Beard]

What is your water volume? Are you running a skimmer? Elimi NP, vodka, etc are going to work, slowly... But with high levels like you have, it might help to start from a lower baseline and use them to keep them lower rather than try to get them down using them. For nitrates, carbon dosing will have a lot greater effect, but water changes are better. For phosphates, GFO or lanthanum chloride will help you out way more than carbon dosing. Just be careful not to strip it too fast.

 

[ShanePike]

There's nothing wrong with 1.0 phosphate. Nitrates of 43 is concerning, though. How confident are you that those numbers are accurate?

 

[sangria517]

What is your water volume? Are you running a skimmer? Elimi NP, vodka, etc are going to work, slowly... But with high levels like you have, it might help to start from a lower baseline and use them to keep them lower rather than try to get them down using them. For nitrates, carbon dosing will have a lot greater effect, but water changes are better. For phosphates, GFO or lanthanum chloride will help you out way more than carbon dosing. Just be careful not to strip it too fast.

The tank is 180g plus sump. Minus the rocks and sand, 160g total water volume. I am running a skimmer.

There's nothing wrong with 1.0 phosphate. Nitrates of 43 is concerning, though. How confident are you that those numbers are accurate?

I used my Hannah tester today. I always clean the vials and air dry them. Powder is in date.

 

[Leadfooted]

Get yourself some Seachem Sea Gel or Seachem phosguard and move on. I love the stuff and used it for years. You can check my build thread for pics of my corals . 1.0 is fine but I know your concerned about the climb. These are great projects for slightly reducing and stabilizing your PO4. Just my suggestion anyways

Build thread

 

[VintageReefer]

The tank is 180g plus sump. Minus the rocks and sand, 160g total water volume. I am running a skimmer.

I used my Hannah tester today. I always clean the vials and air dry them. Powder is in date.

Phosphates will remain high as you probably have a lot of live rock in that system which has phosphate bound up. As you remove phosphates, the rock will release more and replenish the water.
Nitrates are in the water. Water changes are the easiest way to bring this down

 

[Red_Beard]

The tank is 180g plus sump. Minus the rocks and sand, 160g total water volume. I am running a skimmer.

I used my Hannah tester today. I always clean the vials and air dry them. Powder is in date.

Awesome. Skimmer is going to help a ton with carbon dosing.
Like others have mentioned, your numbers are high, but mine have been that high and a little higher before too. The acros didn't seem to mind much, but I didn't want it getting out of hand. I dropped mine with GFO and lanthanum. I run between .2 and .5 phosphates lately. Phosphate is definitely bound in your rock and will take some time to come down, but once it does it will quickly, so careful not to overdo it, should you decide to use them.

 

[Pod_01]

If the corals are looking good I would not be doing anything drastic.
I would continue with the carbon dosing, with TM I observe it takes a long time to see actual drop.

Is the skimmer working properly? Maybe needs some deep cleaning…

If the desire is to reduce PO4 perhaps consider GFO but do use small doses and change it frequently /daily. There should be measurable drop eventually.

 

[sangria517]

If the corals are looking good I would not be doing anything drastic.
I would continue with the carbon dosing, with TM I observe it takes a long time to see actual drop.

Is the skimmer working properly? Maybe needs some deep cleaning…

If the desire is to reduce PO4 perhaps consider GFO but do use small doses and change it frequently /daily. There should be measurable drop eventually.

I did just give the skimmer a good cleaning today. So I will retest in a week and see how they are looking.

 

[BryanM]

I have noticed over the past 3 to 4 months. My phosphate has slowly been rising. It was at about .4.5 and now it is crossed over to 1.0. I first tried a product by Aquaphor, which is basically their version of the vodka vinegar dosing. I was maxed out at 18 MLS per day and not really seeing any difference in my tank. So I switched over to the tropic Marin version, elmini np. My tank is getting the three ML’s daily, which is its max dose for its size in my phosphate. Still really haven’t budged. They are still at about 1.0. My nitrates when I tested them today were 43. Alkalinity was nine calcium was 425. I know traditionally phosphate and nitrate should not be that high. However I have no nuisance algae. The tank actually looks really good and if I wasn’t testing weekly just out of habit I wouldn’t even question anything going on. I have had a couple coral deaths over the past 4 to 5 months. I won’t say it was necessarily nutrition related however because some of the corals were ones I bought super cheap that were on their way out and I was just trying to see if I could score. Good coral for a cheap price and bring it back from the dead.
I’m inclined to leave everything alone as it looks good however, part of me feels guilty doing that because I feel like if I told any other reefer my numbers I would be shunned. Just looking for everyone else’s thoughts and opinions.

I do not feel like I overfeed my fish. They get fed once a day and they get fed essentially one and a half cubes of frozen food. I maybe do pellets once a week. I do have about 10 fish in the system, but they’re all young.

Well, I'll be your huckleberry as I've been fighting this fight for 6 weeks + now.

Apparently there is a phosphate high range tester that can test somewhere near 3.0.... if you really want to try and figure out where you are and how long it might take to get back to testable levels with the hanna you'll need one of those.

My hanna has been blinking .9 for 5 weeks, maybe 6. I do not know how high it was.

I only have an algae turf scrubber for nutrient removal.

Ive been dosing different volumes of Lanthanum (between 20-80ml depending on my frustration level) for the last 5-6 weeks... Dosed in to a 1-5 micron filter sock, notable with this type of filter sock you really need to provide it with water flow as well, I think this was a mistake I made for the first few weeks.... My understanding is the LC gets used up quickly, even if maybe not mixed with fresh salt water. So I dose LC, and I "dose" water from the sump via a manifold in to the sock.

I'm estimating it is week 6, and I'm finally no longer at .9..... I'm down to .67, and slowly still moving in the right direction.

So this works for me, but it comes with risks. There's numerous reports where people have used this product, with tangs in their tank, and had their tangs die.... This is why I dose it into a small micro filter sock, to try and make sure I catch all of the precipitation, and it does not work its way up in to the DT.

Some other people dose the LC right in front of the skimmer inlet and have reported good results as well.

Just know that this method, while efficient, can be risky. I have 5 tangs, no deaths.

 

[sangria517]

Well, I'll be your huckleberry as I've been fighting this fight for 6 weeks + now.

Apparently there is a phosphate high range tester that can test somewhere near 3.0.... if you really want to try and figure out where you are and how long it might take to get back to testable levels with the hanna you'll need one of those.

My hanna has been blinking .9 for 5 weeks, maybe 6. I do not know how high it was.

I only have an algae turf scrubber for nutrient removal.

Ive been dosing different volumes of Lanthanum (between 20-80ml depending on my frustration level) for the last 5-6 weeks... Dosed in to a 1-5 micron filter sock, notable with this type of filter sock you really need to provide it with water flow as well, I think this was a mistake I made for the first few weeks.... My understanding is the LC gets used up quickly, even if maybe not mixed with fresh salt water. So I dose LC, and I "dose" water from the sump via a manifold in to the sock.

I'm estimating it is week 6, and I'm finally no longer at .9..... I'm down to .67, and slowly still moving in the right direction.

So this works for me, but it comes with risks. There's numerous reports where people have used this product, with tangs in their tank, and had their tangs die.... This is why I dose it into a small micro filter sock, to try and make sure I catch all of the precipitation, and it does not work its way up in to the DT.

Some other people dose the LC right in front of the skimmer inlet and have reported good results as well.

Just know that this method, while efficient, can be risky. I have 5 tangs, no deaths.

My Hanna checker goes up to 2.5.

I do have a blue hippo and yellow tang so I am hesitant to use the lanthanum.

I will do some more reaearch

 

[Red_Beard]

I have a kohl and scopas, both have been fine when I've been dosing lanthanum. I was dosing brightwells' at about 3ml/day when I was trying to get it down heavy. Same as BryanM, into a filtersock. No adverse affect to either tang, but definitely watch them, that can be an issue.

 

[BryanM]

My Hanna checker goes up to 2.5.

I do have a blue hippo and yellow tang so I am hesitant to use the lanthanum.

I will do some more reaearch

Ah, well then at least you already know where you stand.

I think GFO is quite common and safer, when I was reading up on it for some reason I thought it was complicated, and for me the LC+Filter sock is temporary, which is what I wanted.

At 1.0, I don't think it will take you the same amount of time it has taken me to reduce phos with whichever path you chose.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

There's nothing wrong with 1.0 phosphate. Nitrates of 43 is concerning, though. How confident are you that those numbers are accurate?

How did you come to that conclusion?

IMO, that nitrate level is within my target range but the phosphate is well above it. Both may be OK, but I would not point out the nitrate as a bigger concern.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Get yourself some Seachem Sea Gel or Seachem phosguard and move on. I love the stuff and used it for years. You can check my build thread for pics of my corals . 1.0 is fine but I know your concerned about the climb. These are great projects for slightly reducing and stabilizing your PO4. Just my suggestion anyways

Build thread

I'm not a fan of aluminum products, but they do work.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have noticed over the past 3 to 4 months. My phosphate has slowly been rising. It was at about .4.5 and now it is crossed over to 1.0. I first tried a product by Aquaphor, which is basically their version of the vodka vinegar dosing. I was maxed out at 18 MLS per day and not really seeing any difference in my tank.

Organic carbon dosing is not generally very effective at nitrate reduction for a variety of reasons. if you were successful with a lot of organic dosing, nitrate would likely bottom out and need dosing N in some form.

If you want to reduce it, I'd look to GFO, lanthanum, or growing macroalgae/ATS. The latter may require N dosing to keep nitrate from bottoming out if you try to use it to reduce phosphate by a large amount.

 

[sangria517]

How did you come to that conclusion?

IMO, that nitrate level is within my target range but the phosphate is well above it. Both may be OK, but I would not point out the nitrate as a bigger concern.

Randy’s Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges

Thoughts on Nutrient Target Ranges by Randy Holmes-Farley Almost nothing in the world of reef aquarium chemistry causes as much discussion as selecting and maintaining ranges for nitrate and phosphate. Some aquarists want low targets, some want...

www.reef2reef.com

What targets seem reasonable? Of course, that depends on all the other factors at play, such as types of corals, availability of ammonia, particulate foods, etc. However, for a mature mixed reef, this would be how I personally would run it:

• Let nitrate float between 5 ppm and 50 ppm. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above 50 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by organic carbon dosing, turf or macroalgae, etc.
• Below 5 ppm, I’d begin to dose ammonia or feed more. The target level might drop lower if dosing ammonia, just like the heavy in/heavy out scenario where nitrate may not be as needed.
• Let phosphate float between about 0.06 ppm and 0.3 ppm. This range is higher than I’ve recommended in the past. I’d use gentle export in this range, such as growing macroalgae.
• Above about 0.3 ppm, I’d begin to focus more on reducing it, by turf or macroalgae, or a binder such as GFO or lanthanum (has its own risks to tangs). If a binder: GO SLOW. Turf and macroalgae will typically be slow enough.
• Below 0.06 ppm, I’d begin to dose sodium phosphate or feed more to get the level up.

I would like to grow macro in my sump but I feel my sump is to small. The picture is from when I got to give you an idea of my space limitations.

Do you think I could grow it still?

I have limited space under my DT as well. The curse of a bowed tank. I have been wanting to get a bigger sump but I do not think I will be able too.

 

[Red_Beard]

Is that middle chamber open? Looks plenty big.

 

[sangria517]

Is that middle chamber open? Looks plenty b

The skimmer is in there.