Phosphates are zeroing out every day, a few specific questions

[BeejReef]

I continue to feel your pain.
Thankfully, I'm not battling dinos myself atm.

I think you're making an excellent point though. Half the reefing world is struggling to reduce phosphate and is told they're not being successful bc it's bound to the rocks and the rocks are leaching. You're just trying to have detectable phosphates and are dosing the dog snot out of it, but are told the rocks are binding it all.

Both cannot be true... lol... at least as not as simple as stated. There must be some mechanism at work.

I'm going through the same and daily dose enough P to equal around .08 and I consistently read 0 on Hanna on an 8 mo tank with absolutely minimal filtration. I'm living with it, knowing that there is P available, even if I cannot detect it.

All I can say is that I've not noticed any averse reaction from my corals when I've overshot the mark and raised P as high as .5. I would't recommend going that high, but it comes right back down. If you're intent on getting your substrate saturated to the point where you can read free P in the water column, you might have to be a bit more forceful in your dosing.

 

[living_tribunal]

I've had this battle also. And also it is with my frag system, that has been expanding. At each expansion 40G to 160G, and 160G to 260G I could not keep PO4 even with dosing. Each time I got hit with dinos (ostreopsis).

I am pretty sure that if I had loaded in a ton of old, PO4 saturated rock at each expansion, I would not have had these challenges. I only brought over mature Marine Pure blocks, and my sense (no science) is they don't bind PO4 as well as good old rock does.

Until your rock/media/substrate gets loaded with PO4, it will continue absorbing it. Just keep gradually increasing your PO4 dose. You will have to keep testing often. You may also need to review your mix solution (or is this premix)?

That’s the exact same battle I’m experiencing.

I’m using seachem flourish phosphorous. I think it’s mix.

So will the rock get to a point where it won’t bind all of the phosphate unless I add a substantial amount more? As of right now, it’s binding everything very fast.

 

[ScottB]

Sorry I have not read the whole thread, I am sure you answered this before but:
How many lbs of rock? And total system volume?

Short answer is "yes" it will eventually hold so much PO4 relative to the concentration in the water that it will release it.

Again I would not go crazy, but increase your dose by 25-50% for a few days, then up it again if the tests are not showing it.

You are testing with Hanna kit, right?

 

[living_tribunal]

I continue to feel your pain.
Thankfully, I'm not battling dinos myself atm.

I think you're making an excellent point though. Half the reefing world is struggling to reduce phosphate and is told they're not being successful bc it's bound to the rocks and the rocks are leaching. You're just trying to have detectable phosphates and are dosing the dog snot out of it, but are told the rocks are binding it all.

Both cannot be true... lol... at least as not as simple as stated. There must be some mechanism at work.

I'm going through the same and daily dose enough P to equal around .08 and I consistently read 0 on Hanna on an 8 mo tank with absolutely minimal filtration. I'm living with it, knowing that there is P available, even if I cannot detect it.

All I can say is that I've not noticed any averse reaction from my corals when I've overshot the mark and raised P as high as .5. I would't recommend going that high, but it comes right back down. If you're intent on getting your substrate saturated to the point where you can read free P in the water column, you might have to be a bit more forceful in your dosing.

You bring up many good points yourself. Maybe it’s just that many others don’t care about phosphates until it’s time to decrease it. Maybe they stock their tank quicker. Who knows?

This is a very interesting battle for sure.

I agree with you on ramping up the dosing a bit. I’ve been very steady with the incremental increases every day but I need to find the rate pretty soon or this Dino will return after blackout.

I dosed .07ppm last night and I think that could be about the mad I’d be ok dosing in a single time. Going to test shortly here for the rate of binding.

 

[living_tribunal]

Sorry I have not read the whole thread, I am sure you answered this before but:
How many lbs of rock? And total system volume?

Short answer is "yes" it will eventually hold so much PO4 relative to the concentration in the water that it will release it.

Again I would not go crazy, but increase your dose by 25-50% for a few days, then up it again if the tests are not showing it.

You are testing with Hanna kit, right?

I REALLY appreciate that answer. It's kind of stressful knowing what you should do but not how it works.

I am using the hanna phosphorous ulr checker.

I have a 65g display, 100g volume, and about 80-90lbs of rock between the display and sump. I would remove the rock from sump but too many amphipods and worms are breeding down there. I love my worms.

 

[living_tribunal]

So I just ran the first test for the phosphate binding rate. I dosed 3ml, .0375ppm, and re-tested an hour later.

The rock is binding.... fast.

My phosphate was .006132 an hour later. That means the rock is binding approximately .03ppm an hour. There's no way I can handle that with only 3 doses per day.

I think I may need to get a doser.

 

[ScottB]

I REALLY appreciate that answer. It's kind of stressful knowing what you should do but not how it works.

I am using the hanna phosphorous ulr checker.

I have a 65g display, 100g volume, and about 80-90lbs of rock between the display and sump. I would remove the rock from sump but too many amphipods and worms are breeding down there. I love my worms.

Oh keep that rock for sure. Once it is aged it is critical for keeping nutrient balance together. Feels like forever but so worth having once it gets there. I thought my aged ceramic block was an equal substitution but less sure about that now. It is good for bacterial NO3 processing but I guess it does not store as much PO4.

is that rock man made or otherwise phosphate free when you added it?

 

[ScottB]

So I just ran the first test for the phosphate binding rate. I dosed 3ml, .0375ppm, and re-tested an hour later.

The rock is binding.... fast.

My phosphate was .006132 an hour later. That means the rock is binding approximately .03ppm an hour. There's no way I can handle that with only 3 doses per day.

I think I may need to get a doser.

Here is what 20ml a day looks like with my brs dosed and a smart power strip.

 

[living_tribunal]

Oh keep that rock for sure. Once it is aged it is critical for keeping nutrient balance together. Feels like forever but so worth having once it gets there. I thought my aged ceramic block was an equal substitution but less sure about that now. It is good for bacterial NO3 processing but I guess it does not store as much PO4.

is that rock man made or otherwise phosphate free when you added it?

Yes, this was dry rock that was also cured. Most of the rock in my display however sat in an empty tank that was ghost fed for 2-3 months (why I have some coralline, used purple helix). Seems like that didn't make a dent either lol.

Now that I know the binding rate, I feel a lot more confident about getting levels up before I end the blackout. Going to amazon the jebao dosing unit today. I won't have a use case for a doser beyond this for quite a while so will upgrade at a later day when I have a greater need for a more permanent unit.

 

[LARedstickreefer]

Each time phosphate gets dosed, won’t the corals get what they need before the rest gets taken by rocks and algae?

Maybe just get a doser to dose small amounts several times a day rather than worrying about the actual numbers when you measure them.

I’d think that a saturated rock would be bad as it might begin to release phosphate thus fueling algae.

 

[btmedic04]

Ive been dealing with the same issue in my 40B. Nitrates that climb and phosphate that reads between 0.00-0.02 (hanna phosphate ulr) Started dosing 2ml (47 gallons total water volume) to get me up to 0.05 after the fuge light comes on. Seems to be working as my ulva and chaeto are growing like weeds in the refugium and my corals in the DT all are encrusting, growing and showing good color. Last test of nitrate was 12 (Monday) according to my red sea kit. Will have to check to see what its at today

 

[living_tribunal]

After botching two tests today, I only have like 7 phosphorous regents left and my order for more doesn’t come in until the 29th.

I am worried about dosing the amount indicated by the phosphate binding rate without more tests but need regents to test every day.

Dosing .03ppm phosphate every hour is a lot so I’m going to have to figure out what to do once the doser gets here. No lfs near me sell hanna regents.

Lights come on in 2-3 days as well. Going to have to play this one by ear.

 

[living_tribunal]

Each time phosphate gets dosed, won’t the corals get what they need before the rest gets taken by rocks and algae?

Maybe just get a doser to dose small amounts several times a day rather than worrying about the actual numbers when you measure them.

I’d think that a saturated rock would be bad as it might begin to release phosphate thus fueling algae.

Well that’s the plan but I can’t worry about testing for numbers that don’t exist. A 0 is a 0. The testing today was to just determine the rate at which the phosphates were being bound to establish the dosing rate.

 

[pigmo]

Well that’s the plan but I can’t worry about testing for numbers that don’t exist. A 0 is a 0. The testing today was to just determine the rate at which the phosphates were being bound to establish the dosing rate.

fwiw, sometimes when we test zeros on our hanna egg, icp comes back with a small reading above zero. our md cousin said something about the test kits maybe testing inorganic po4 only, while icp maybe picks up both inorganic and organic po4. so yea, sometimes a zero is not an exact zero, ridiculous right?

when we reach the point of being absolutely perplexed at our levels (like your are now lols) we set our doser to dose just a tiny bit every 3 or 4 hrs, just to ensure at least some po4 is in the water column. we stay in this 'survival mode' until we can ID a trend. ;Clown

 

[living_tribunal]

fwiw, sometimes when we test zeros on our hanna egg, icp comes back with a small reading above zero. our md cousin said something about the test kits maybe testing inorganic po4 only, while icp maybe picks up both inorganic and organic po4. so yea, sometimes a zero is not an exact zero, ridiculous right?

when we reach the point of being absolutely perplexed at our levels (like your are now lols) we set our doser to dose just a tiny bit every 3 or 4 hrs, just to ensure at least some po4 is in the water column. we stay in this 'survival mode' until we can ID a trend. ;Clown

That’s funny lol.

I know my exact levels, now down to the rate of them being bound. It’s a question of how can I keep up.

This sounds absurd, but from the tests I ran today, I need to administer .72ppm of phosphate throughout a 24 hour period to have a surplus (anything above 0) at all times.

I think you’re right and I just need to dose the .03 every hour. It still seems like so much, definitely makes me nervous.

I’m not sure how long it takes for rock to start becoming saturated. If the study was accurate, then it will take a very very long time to administer 52ppm per lb.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

fwiw, sometimes when we test zeros on our hanna egg, icp comes back with a small reading above zero. our md cousin said something about the test kits maybe testing inorganic po4 only, while icp maybe picks up both inorganic and organic po4. so yea, sometimes a zero is not an exact zero, ridiculous right?

when we reach the point of being absolutely perplexed at our levels (like your are now lols) we set our doser to dose just a tiny bit every 3 or 4 hrs, just to ensure at least some po4 is in the water column. we stay in this 'survival mode' until we can ID a trend. ;Clown

it is certainly try that icp picks up all types of phosphate and kits only detect certain types of inorganic phosphate. But having organic P is not the same as having inorganic P.

 

[pigmo]

it is certainly try that icp picks up all types of phosphate and kits only detect certain types of inorganic phosphate. But having organic P is not the same as having inorganic P.

randy, any idea which type of P is necessary for our creatures?

 

[btmedic04]

For what its worth, I only dosed 1ml of seachem flourish phosphorus tonight and had a 0.03 reading on my hanna ulr phosphate checker. Also, nitrates are down to 8. I think my tank is finally finding equilibrium between N and P. Just stick with dosing @living_tribunal and in time it will balance out. For me, its taken about a month

 

[living_tribunal]

For what its worth, I only dosed 1ml of seachem flourish phosphorus tonight and had a 0.03 reading on my hanna ulr phosphate checker. Also, nitrates are down to 8. I think my tank is finally finding equilibrium between N and P. Just stick with dosing @living_tribunal and in time it will balance out. For me, its taken about a month

It's excellent news to hear your success.

I think you're right. I noticed towards the end of the day after very aggressive dosing that phosphates start to hold a little better. I think dosing throughout the day will be enough to get some algae in the tank. I can always throw some turf algae from my frag tank in there if not.

Hopefully I can see the other side like you have soon. I'm thinking my new fish will be helpful as well.

Keep me posted with any updates, I'm definitely interested.

 

[ruskimax]

Stock heavier, throw some reef roids in there at night, keep dosing like a ba$tid. Your tank is very new and no amount of chemicals will replace patience and tincture of time. Good luck.