Please!!! Help diagnosing this fish disease and cure

[AlbertGF]

Hi!

Many days ago I detected a fish in my tank that had like a "broken" caudal fin. I didn't give it importance, I thought it was a small fight or something similar. Then I was away from my home for a month or so and when I returned I saw many caudal and pectoral fins broken also I have an Emperor Angelfish that has like small holes in her head (both sides, like symmetrical) and mouth. I took some pictures, can you help me to identify the disease and its cure? I think it's a bacterial infection and I'm adding Metrodinazole and Ciprofloxacine and Fish V (Aquaforest vitamins) in their food. They are eating and behaving normally.

Thank you so much!

 

[AlbertGF]

May be @Humblefish can help? I read your webpage and I think is a bacterial problem. I am treating with antibiotics.

 

[MnFish1]

Curious - what are you feeding the fish? How long have you had them - when did you get them? Is your temperature - and salinity doing ok?

1. The Moorish Idol - could be getting 'bullied' as could the tang. It does look a little like 'fin rot'.
2. The Emperor is difficult to see - I can see the 'pale area' on the face. Are you using one of the cheaper versions (or any) carbon as if this is Lateral Line disease - that can be associated - along with a poor diet.
3. IME - bacterial infections are often 'reddish' blotches - especially when severe. How are you determining the dose of cipro etc to use?

Is there any new fish you just added? were they QT'd

 

[MnFish1]

@reefssquad. @Jay Hemdal

 

[vetteguy53081]

Looks like injury and aggression issues? When in front of the tank, fish tend to be on their Best behavior. Place your phone on video and place in front of the tank and walk away for an hour. Come back and review video
If nothing going on in terms of squabbling, plan for possibility of bacterial issue and fin rot potential
Maracyn 2 will be a good cure if needed. Kanamycin and focus added to foods also good - that is IF NEEDED

 

[AlbertGF]

Curious - what are you feeding the fish? How long have you had them - when did you get them? Is your temperature - and salinity doing ok?

1. The Moorish Idol - could be getting 'bullied' as could the tang. It does look a little like 'fin rot'.
2. The Emperor is difficult to see - I can see the 'pale area' on the face. Are you using one of the cheaper versions (or any) carbon as if this is Lateral Line disease - that can be associated - along with a poor diet.
3. IME - bacterial infections are often 'reddish' blotches - especially when severe. How are you determining the dose of cipro etc to use?

Is there any new fish you just added? were they QT'd

I feed Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two pellets, also Spirulina, Prime Reef and Brine Shrim Plus Ocean Nutrition Flakes. Mysys and Formula Ocean Nutrition frozen food, Mastick form Easy Reefsand some Nori algae . Obviously not all at once it depends on the day.

I don't remember but I think 4 months or so since I bought them.

Temperature is 26.5 Cº and salinity 34.3 more or less.

1. I am almost sure they are not bullied, I didn't see aggressive behaviors in the tank, at least they are not common.
2. Are like small holes I'll try to get better pictures.
3. I cannot get fish antibiotics where I live so I use human antibiotics and mix one or two very little spoons (like the red one that comes with Salifert test kits ) of antibiotic with a ball of Mastick food.

 

[AlbertGF]

Looks like injury and aggression issues? When in front of the tank, fish tend to be on their Best behavior. Place your phone on video and place in front of the tank and walk away for an hour. Come back and review video
If nothing going on in terms of squabbling, plan for possibility of bacterial issue and fin rot potential
Maracyn 2 will be a good cure if needed. Kanamycin and focus added to foods also good - that is IF NEEDED

Two of you told me about aggressions I'll look the tank with more attention but I don't think so, I didn't see aggressive behavior in the tank.
The problem with the antibiotics specific for aquariums is that is difficult to find them, at least this has been told from three of my LFS, I cannot find antibiotics from Seachem, I ordered Kanaplex, Focus and Sulfaplex from States via eBay but they will arrive next month. I can go to my pharmacy and ask them if they can sell me some "human" antibiotics as a favor.

 

[MnFish1]

Two of you told me about aggressions I'll look the tank with more attention but I don't think so, I didn't see aggressive behavior in the tank.
The problem with the antibiotics specific for aquariums is that is difficult to find them, at least this has been told from three of my LFS, I cannot find antibiotics from Seachem, I ordered Kanaplex, Focus and Sulfaplex from States via eBay but they will arrive next month. I can go to my pharmacy and ask them if they can sell me some "human" antibiotics as a favor.

You can get the proper antibiotics with a veterinary prescription (at least in the US) - and you can buy some over the counter (but I realize you cannot). You would be surprised - how much aggression can happen without being seen. Especially when some of the fish 'look fine'. The emperor looks like it has HLLE or the start of it. Sometimes people recommend higher 'fatty acid foods' - with vitamin A/E. Some recommend removing carbon (especially certain types - which of course I cannot remember). Sometimes there can just be scaring from a prior episode (ie. the holes stay there - but there is no problem). I would be careful about dosing antibiotics - I'm not sure how well kanaplex is taken up when eating (it is usually absorbed through the skin). At least in humans it is not absorbed through the GI tract)

 

[vetteguy53081]

Didn’t realize you were out of the US. Try @Aquanest (our new sponsor who may be able to assist you)

 

[Dom]

Looks like aggression to me. How big is your tank and what fish are in it? It may just be a case of too many fish in your tank.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

The emperor angel is developing head and lateral line disease, HLLE. The Moorish Idol has damage from possible aggression. Can you list all of the animals in this tank, or perhaps take a video of the whole tank at once? The hepatus tang may have aggression wounds, but I’ve seen similar issues show up from dietary problems.
Jay

 

[vetteguy53081]

I unless I/we missed it, what size tank are these fish in?
What food’s are you feeding these fish ?

 

[AlbertGF]

Thank you for you answers!

Many of you are asking the tank size, is 200cm X 70cm X 55cm (L x W x H), a refugium of 55cm X 55cm X 40 cm (L x W x H) and a normal sump.

Fishes:
5 Clownfish
7 Chromis viridis
6 Pseudanthias squamipinnis
1 Chelmon rostratus
1 Chaetodon auriga
2 Synchiropus splendidus
1 Siganus vulpinus
1 Nemateleotris decora
1 Ecsenius midas
1 Ecsenius bicolor
1 Salarias ramosus
1 Valenciennea sexguttata
1 Valenciennea strigata
1 Oxycirrhites typus
1 Cirrhilabrus solorensis
1 Cirrhilabrus rubeus
1 Centropyge bispinosa
1 Paracanthurus hepatus
1 Pomacanthus imperator
1 Zanclus

I feed Ocean Nutrition Formula One and Two pellets, also Spirulina, Prime Reef and Brine Shrim Plus Ocean Nutrition Flakes. Mysys and Formula Ocean Nutrition frozen food, Mastick form Easy Reefs and some Nori algae . Obviously not all at once it depends on the day.

I feed heavily, in fact I have some algae on rocks but I don't care, I think on it as fresh food for fishes and pods.
I have to admit that the month I was away the nitrates raised to 25-35 and phosphates got depleted, these days I'm adding phosphate to try to find an equilibrium and make the chaeto grow. Maybe nitrates are also rising because I used antibiotic which could have killed some good bacteria. Ammonia is 0, tested today just in case.

I have an Royal Exclusive Double Cone 250 Skimmer with Ozone, one UV filter and I had a reactor with activated carbon but I have retired it these days.

I asked my wife and says the same as me... We don't see aggressive behaviors on the tank. We, both, will pay more attention.

Regarding HLLE I'm preparing a huge water change and I will begin to add vitamins to all foods. I want to read more about activated carbon and HLLE. I read something about that a more natural light spectrum could help with HLLE (something about types of algae grow -> fresh food). I will continue reading about HLLE.

 

[Dom]

Thank you for you answers!

Many of you are asking the tank size, is 200cm X 70cm X 55cm (L x W x H), a refugium of 55cm X 55cm X 40 cm (L x W x H) and a normal sump.

Fishes:
5 Clownfish
7 Chromis viridis
6 Pseudanthias squamipinnis
1 Chelmon rostratus
1 Chaetodon auriga
2 Synchiropus splendidus
1 Siganus vulpinus
1 Nemateleotris decora
1 Ecsenius midas
1 Ecsenius bicolor
1 Salarias ramosus
1 Valenciennea sexguttata
1 Valenciennea strigata
1 Oxycirrhites typus
1 Cirrhilabrus solorensis
1 Cirrhilabrus rubeus
1 Centropyge bispinosa
1 Paracanthurus hepatus
1 Pomacanthus imperator
1 Zanclus



I feed heavily, in fact I have some algae on rocks but I don't care, I think on it as fresh food for fishes and pods.
I have to admit that the month I was away the nitrates raised to 25-35 and phosphates got depleted, these days I'm adding phosphate to try to find an equilibrium and make the chaeto grow. Maybe nitrates are also rising because I used antibiotic which could have killed some good bacteria. Ammonia is 0, tested today just in case.

I have an Royal Exclusive Double Cone 250 Skimmer with Ozone, one UV filter and I had a reactor with activated carbon but I have retired it these days.

I asked my wife and says the same as me... We don't see aggressive behaviors on the tank. We, both, will pay more attention.

Regarding HLLE I'm preparing a huge water change and I will begin to add vitamins to all foods. I want to read more about activated carbon and HLLE. I read something about that a more natural light spectrum could help with HLLE (something about types of algae grow -> fresh food). I will continue reading about HLLE.

That is a tank which is roughly 6 feet x 2 feet by 2 feet. I believe that is 24 cubic feet, which converts to roughly 180 gallons.

I count 35 fish. Depending on the sizes of the fish, that tank may be over crowded. And based on what I see in some of the pictures, I feel aggression may be a factor.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Thank you for you answers!

Many of you are asking the tank size, is 200cm X 70cm X 55cm (L x W x H), a refugium of 55cm X 55cm X 40 cm (L x W x H) and a normal sump.

Fishes:
5 Clownfish
7 Chromis viridis
6 Pseudanthias squamipinnis
1 Chelmon rostratus
1 Chaetodon auriga
2 Synchiropus splendidus
1 Siganus vulpinus
1 Nemateleotris decora
1 Ecsenius midas
1 Ecsenius bicolor
1 Salarias ramosus
1 Valenciennea sexguttata
1 Valenciennea strigata
1 Oxycirrhites typus
1 Cirrhilabrus solorensis
1 Cirrhilabrus rubeus
1 Centropyge bispinosa
1 Paracanthurus hepatus
1 Pomacanthus imperator
1 Zanclus



I feed heavily, in fact I have some algae on rocks but I don't care, I think on it as fresh food for fishes and pods.
I have to admit that the month I was away the nitrates raised to 25-35 and phosphates got depleted, these days I'm adding phosphate to try to find an equilibrium and make the chaeto grow. Maybe nitrates are also rising because I used antibiotic which could have killed some good bacteria. Ammonia is 0, tested today just in case.

I have an Royal Exclusive Double Cone 250 Skimmer with Ozone, one UV filter and I had a reactor with activated carbon but I have retired it these days.

I asked my wife and says the same as me... We don't see aggressive behaviors on the tank. We, both, will pay more attention.

Regarding HLLE I'm preparing a huge water change and I will begin to add vitamins to all foods. I want to read more about activated carbon and HLLE. I read something about that a more natural light spectrum could help with HLLE (something about types of algae grow -> fresh food). I will continue reading about HLLE.

None of those fish are real mean fish. Of the group, I would trust the Ecsenius midas the least, especially if it is big. You may never see the aggression: while you are busy watching the fish, they stop their bad behavior and watch you. Also, if a fish bites another one once a day, but a week's time, the fish's fins will be shredded, but what is your chance of seeing a bit that lasts only a split second in 24 hours. One trick is to watch the tank from a dark room. Another trick is to set up your phone to video the tank and then leave the room...then watch for trouble in the video.
In the end, you may just need to manage the damage and may never find out which fish is the culprit.

Jay

 

[AlbertGF]

Well I feel calmer. At first it seemed to me fin rot and as almost nobody talked about it I'll have to look on aggression, I have a webcam so I'll film them when I'm not at home to see what happens in my aquarium.
I began to dose antibiotics with the food so I'll finish the round of antibiotics, 10 or 14 days, and then stop.

Also it seems that I have the HLLE problem with the emperor, I'll control water quality to the extreme and I will add more vitamins and nori to see if it improves. I also changed the light spectrum to a more natural light (Radion Shallow Reef Natural) to see if it changes something or it makes other type of algae grow.
I also will read more about activated carbon and HLLE as I am a big fan of activated carbon (never had this problem before). Coconut carbon, lignite carbon, anthracite carbon; small granulated, pelletized; in a fluidized reactor, in a bag; etc. Also I do not know if the problem be because of the small dust carbon can produce or because carbon extracts too many elements from water.
I have a ground probe but I will check again if I have stray voltage on the aquarium.

And I don't know what else to check...

Again. Thank you, thank you and thank you for all information you share in this forum.

 

[Jay Hemdal]

Well I feel calmer. At first it seemed to me fin rot and as almost nobody talked about it I'll have to look on aggression, I have a webcam so I'll film them when I'm not at home to see what happens in my aquarium.
I began to dose antibiotics with the food so I'll finish the round of antibiotics, 10 or 14 days, and then stop.

Also it seems that I have the HLLE problem with the emperor, I'll control water quality to the extreme and I will add more vitamins and nori to see if it improves. I also changed the light spectrum to a more natural light (Radion Shallow Reef Natural) to see if it changes something or it makes other type of algae grow.
I also will read more about activated carbon and HLLE as I am a big fan of activated carbon (never had this problem before). Coconut carbon, lignite carbon, anthracite carbon; small granulated, pelletized; in a fluidized reactor, in a bag; etc. Also I do not know if the problem be because of the small dust carbon can produce or because carbon extracts too many elements from water.
I have a ground probe but I will check again if I have stray voltage on the aquarium.

And I don't know what else to check...

Again. Thank you, thank you and thank you for all information you share in this forum.

Soft dusty carbon in a reactor is a big issue in causing HLLE. Trouble is, once the carbon dust gets out into the tank, even stopping carbon use won't cure the problem, as the dust is in the tank. Luckily, your angel only has a very mild case, let's hope it stays that way!

Jay

 

[AlbertGF]

Soft dusty carbon in a reactor is a big issue in causing HLLE. Trouble is, once the carbon dust gets out into the tank, even stopping carbon use won't cure the problem, as the dust is in the tank. Luckily, your angel only has a very mild case, let's hope it stays that way!

Jay

Thank you Jay,

Some more questions about HLLE and GAC. I read some articles (I think some made by you) regarding GAC and HLLE.
Is there any GAC better than others, for example I am using anthracite pellets as GAC, are these better or worse than lignite or coconut? Data sheet of my GAC says its hardness is min. 98 using ASTM 3802 method (I have no idea what that means), is it hard enough? Which are the hard or soft GAC?
I read you recommend skimmer when using GAC as it helps removing GAC dust. Do you recommend some sort of mechanical filtration too? For example filter socks or ClariSea when using GAC? Should it be mandatory?
HLLE is caused because of the GAC dust particles that enter on water or because GAC adsorbs too much "elements" from water?
Finally, do you discourage using GAC on a reactor? Is it better to run it passively on a filter bag in sump?

Thank you!

 

[Jay Hemdal]

We seem to see that high grade pellet carbon is less of an issue with HLLE. Lignite carbon was the one that showed definitive signs, every time. Mechanical filtration would help, but I do not know the micron size rating needed to remove carbon dust. Any filter smaller than about 20 micron is going to clog too fast. GAC in a reactor causes more dust to be produced. The worst case of HLLE ever seen was at a public aquarium that decided to put GAC in their sand filters. The HLLE got so bad that fish were dying from it - all bony fish exhibit for eels and jacks died, sharks and rays were all fine. ?Well-rinsed, passive carbon is best.

Jay

 

[AlbertGF]

Well, thank you so much to all for all that knowledge. It's time to get down to work!