PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[MnFish1]

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it

That is hyperbole. 1. What percent of people actually do it?

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

If you have a QT tank, what size do you recommend? When a fish you bought has a problem and you treat it, do you treat it in another tank? Of course you would need to treat all the other fish as well that were quarantined with it? Now you have a contaminated 'proper quarantine tank' that you have to re-cycle, etc. Its all stressful to the fish (whatever that means), and there are a host of problems doing it either way. Unless you have some data that says 100 fish quarantined with TTM were compared to 100 fish quarantined with 'insert your method here', your post (no offense - you said it would cause a war) doesn't 'hold water'.

 

[4FordFamily]

It might be useful to know that @NYAquatic is a fish vendor, not just a hobbyist.

The only reason I bring that up is that he has a lot of experience with fish and ships very healthy fish. More than half of the fish I mentioned above were from NYAquatics. Probably 60% or more. For what it's worth, perhaps nothing :)

 

[MnFish1]

Another interesting study would be 'what percentage of time does adding a new fish cause no problems?'. There are stories galore about people who have bought fish from xyz and dumped them into their tank only to have a mass death due to parasites a couple weeks later. But - how often does that actually happen as compared to all the deaths that occur to quarantine protocols? I guess what I do is put fish in a separate tank that is cycled and of the appropriate size and monitor them. It is rare (in my experience) to have a problem. No changing of tanks, no medications, just watching.

 

[BoomCorals]

I've done a few research papers on the affect of commensal cleaning organisms on fish stress and the primary basis for measuring stress was cortisol levels. I'll see if I can locate a few of the studies to clarify how that was measured but from memory, it was cortisol levels in the holding water.

That'd be very interesting to see!

 

[Maddlesrain]

I'd like to hop in and simply say that if you're proficient with a net (or whatever you're using to scoop out your fish), TTM should really not be a stressful process at all. If you're watching for ammonia, and have a matching salinity and temperature before each transfer, that shouldn't be over-the-top stressful or considered in any way "barbaric." I'm using the method right now and my fish will start eating almost immediately after the switch is done.

The fish include a potter's angel, ocellaris clownfish pair, two masked gobies, and four chromis.

I did lose my beloved filefish at the beginning of the process, but this occurred after the stress of having to remove everyone from the display because it was riddled with ick, not because of one of the transfers done during this method. Honestly, I'd rather do TTM for every new addition rather than tear my reef apart, because THAT is TRULY STRESSFUL!):

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef]

That'd be very interesting to see!

I no longer have access to the scientific journals that the experiments I wrote about were in but this article encompasses much of the general science behind the concept.
https://www.cefas.co.uk/publications/files/3402.pdf

 

[jeff williams]

I agree ttm has its place but I think cu is a more viable option just because it treats velvet also

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef]

Sorry to detract from the original post but for anyone wondering, the presence of commensal cleaning organisms does have measurable impact on free cortisol levels(stress) in ornamental fish. Cleaner shrimp, (I don't remember which species was used), showed a more profound reduction in cortisol levels than cleaner fish (again, not certain on species)

 

[Maddlesrain]

Sorry to detract from the original post but for anyone wondering, the presence of commensal cleaning organisms does have measurable impact on free cortisol levels(stress) in ornamental fish. Cleaner shrimp, (I don't remember which species was used), showed a more profound reduction in cortisol levels than cleaner fish (again, not certain on species)

This is a great fact!! Thank you for sharing! I love learning little tidbits such as this.

 

[NYAquatic]

FWIW, I normally recommend a QT tank that's 25% display tank volume.
Ball park.
If you have a 40, you're not likely to buy anything that can't spend some time in a 10
if you have a 125, you might be looking at larger tangs so a 30 would be better. Again, ballpark.

I've talked to dozens if not over a hundred customers who do TTM.
With very few exceptions (count on 1 hand), they all used 10 gal or less as their TTM tanks.
I guess my experience is somewhat skewed in that my business is on line. So typically, my customer is not buying 1 small wrasse or goby (not cost effective to ship). I could imagine it's different for those who go to LFS and pickup a fish.
Anyway, in >90% of the customers I spoke to, TTM tanks were way too small to house the fish being QT'd, either due to size of fish or quantity of fish.
That's a BIG issue with TTM, but not the only one.

I am also very much against keeping fish in uncyled tanks, even for a few days.

Finally, again, it's a lot of effort and money to treat 1 parasite, which is more easily treated with copper, and ignores other parasites/pathogens.

Since again, TTM is normally smaller tanks, what happens when you realize you have flukes? Are you then using one of your uncylced, too small tanks to treat the flukes (see the problem here?) or are you also maintaining a larger, longer term QT tank for additional treatments. And if so, why bother with TTM?

 

[Sleepydoc]

Formalin (Formaldehyde) is also a known effective treatment for Ich that is often not mentioned.

If done properly, it's very effective and easy.

Formalin will reduce the parasitic load but is not reliable for completely curing a fish of ich. As toxic as formalin is, I have a hard time believing it's non-stressful, but I just got done doing a formalin dip for velvet and the fish seemed to tolerate it remarkably well, so who knows?

If you're observing the fish after ttm anyway, or you notice brook/velvet/flukes/or a persistent strain of ich, does it not defeat the purpose of transferring when you then treat with copper/cp anyway?

If you’re going go use copper, then TTM is pointless.

I have always felt the exact same way about TTM. I have been in this hobby for 11 years now and never lost fish due to not qt'ing. It's much more stressful on the fish using ttm, imo.

If you're not quarantining, then you're living dangerously and got lucky. I say this as someone who just lost half his tank to velvet that came in on a Sea Hare (the best I can tell)

 

[MnFish1]

It might be useful to know that @NYAquatic is a fish vendor, not just a hobbyist. The only reason I bring that up is that he has a lot of experience with fish and ships very healthy fish. More than half of the fish I mentioned above were from NYAquatics. Probably 60% or more. For what it's worth, perhaps nothing :)

I assumed that - and I have no problems with the conclusion. Just nice if he backed up his opinion with some data. Or at least didnt start the post with 'barbaric' 'worst thing in the hobby for 20 years' if its just 'opinion'. Hopefully the fish mentioned were the ones that survived.

Sorry to detract from the original post but for anyone wondering, the presence of commensal cleaning organisms does have measurable impact on free cortisol levels(stress) in ornamental fish. Cleaner shrimp, (I don't remember which species was used), showed a more profound reduction in cortisol levels than cleaner fish (again, not certain on species)

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. Has someone measured cortisol levels using the TTM method and other quarantine methods? Not meant as a criticism but merely a question. Its expected that even netting a fish with a chase causes cortisol to rise, and that would be measured in the water. This happens in a display tank also when a big fish chases a small one I would assume. Hopefully in the experiments comparing cleaner fish and cleaner shrimp took into account the additional 'fish load' (the cleaner fish) which would also release cortisol (cleaner shrimp maybe not as much).

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef]

Formalin will reduce the parasitic load but is not reliable for completely curing a fish of ich. As toxic as formalin is, I have a hard time believing it's non-stressful, but I just got done doing a formalin dip for velvet and the fish seemed to tolerate it remarkably well, so who knows?

Another downfall to formalin is that if the fish has any sort of open wounds or cuts (like from brushing on rocks), exposure to formalin will more than likely kill it.

 

[MnFish1]

FWIW, I normally recommend a QT tank that's 25% display tank volume.
Ball park.
If you have a 40, you're not likely to buy anything that can't spend some time in a 10
if you have a 125, you might be looking at larger tangs so a 30 would be better. Again, ballpark.

I've talked to dozens if not over a hundred customers who do TTM.
With very few exceptions (count on 1 hand), they all used 10 gal or less as their TTM tanks.
I guess my experience is somewhat skewed in that my business is on line. So typically, my customer is not buying 1 small wrasse or goby (not cost effective to ship). I could imagine it's different for those who go to LFS and pickup a fish.
Anyway, in >90% of the customers I spoke to, TTM tanks were way too small to house the fish being QT'd, either due to size of fish or quantity of fish.
That's a BIG issue with TTM, but not the only one.

I am also very much against keeping fish in uncyled tanks, even for a few days.

Finally, again, it's a lot of effort and money to treat 1 parasite, which is more easily treated with copper, and ignores other parasites/pathogens.

Since again, TTM is normally smaller tanks, what happens when you realize you have flukes? Are you then using one of your uncylced, too small tanks to treat the flukes (see the problem here?) or are you also maintaining a larger, longer term QT tank for additional treatments. And if so, why bother with TTM?

Thanks - here is a question. A person has a quarantine tank, cycled for x bio load (somehow). They add a fish that has x+y bio load. There is no way to know if the biofilter in that tank is adequate to maintain that particular fish or group of fish being quarantined. So even in that scenario, there is a risk of 'ammonia spikes', etc. It is all guesswork.

 

[aykwm]

Well TTM works well for me and I try my best to keep it as stress free as possible. Usually transfers are carried out at night or early morning where fish are least active, I noticed that they barely stress and if discoloration occurred due to stress, the fish is back to normal colors within few minutes. I also ensure to dose ammonia detoxifier every 12 hours and only once I had an ammonia incident where I had to travel for two days and came back to the fish showing ammonia burn signs, but I managed to save it.

The good thing about TTM is it can be modified to suit your needs and reduce stress.
Also I prefer it rather than using toxins (copper) to treat the fish. Im color blind too, so using copper is almost guaranteed disaster (reading test kit chart).

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef]

Not sure what this has to do with the thread. Has someone measured cortisol levels using the TTM method and other quarantine methods? Not meant as a criticism but merely a question. Its expected that even netting a fish with a chase causes cortisol to rise, and that would be measured in the water. This happens in a display tank also when a big fish chases a small one I would assume. Hopefully in the experiments comparing cleaner fish and cleaner shrimp took into account the additional 'fish load' (the cleaner fish) which would also release cortisol (cleaner shrimp maybe not as much).

@BoomCorals had asked if there was a way to measure stress and cortisol is one of the hormones used to compare stress levels in fish. I was simply providing a response. The post about the effect of commensal cleaning organisms on measured stress levels was based on the conclusion drawn in the experiment. It was published in a peer reviewed scientific journal so there was at least some confirmation of data collection methods. I wrote the paper on it back in sophomore year of college so I don't remember the specifics of the experiment. They may have evaluated cortisol levels in the plasma of the subject fish rather than concentrations in water.

 

[MnFish1]

@BoomCorals had asked if there was a way to measure stress and cortisol is one of the hormones used to compare stress levels in fish. I was simply providing a response. The post about the effect of commensal cleaning organisms on measured stress levels was based on the conclusion drawn in the experiment. It was published in a peer reviewed scientific journal so there was at least some confirmation of data collection methods. I wrote the paper on it back in sophomore year of college so I don't remember the specifics of the experiment. They may have evaluated cortisol levels in the plasma of the subject fish rather than concentrations in water.

OH - I thought you meant you wrote the paper - sorry/

 

[Ryan@ShelteredReef]

OH - I thought you meant you wrote the paper - sorry/

No problem at all. I didn't mean for it to seem as if I was tooting my own horn. Back to the topic at hand...
I've used TTM in the past and what I'd always done was keep cycled media in the "sterile" display (rubble, marinpure, bio-max, etc) that I would then use in the containers being used for TTM. This provided a bacterial population that could process the ammonia as it was produced. After each transfer, the media was sterilized(bleach) along with the rest of the equipment from the previous container and then allowed to dry out for a week before being placed back into my sump. I never had issues with ammonia toxicity when performing TTM in this manor.
I stopped using TTM after adding some of the more challenging fish I've kept directly to my display (Pipefish, harlequin filefish, leopard wrasse...).

 

[TerraFerma]

At the risk of starting a war, please see thread title.

TTM is, in my not so humble opinion, one of the worst things to hit the hobby in my 20+ years doing it. Why do people love it? In my opinion, it comes down to two things:

1) I call it the **** (online vendor) effect. Back in the day, they invented 14 day guarantees. That shifts the financial burden of QTing from customer to supplier. In short, people don't so much care, or at least don't feel the $ pinch, of QT losses. Trading QT losses for safer display makes economic sense with guarantee. But it's barbaric. We have an obligation to do what we can to assure the survival of the fish we purchase.
2) People love to brag/post about their prowess in the hobby. Hey look, we have this new QT protocol and my fish came through it great. And thus it spreads. People are MUCH MUCH less likely to post-man I"m an idiot. I tried this new method and killed a bunch of fish. Don't make the same mistake I did.

Why do I think TTM is horrible:

1) Fish when shipped, or even moved from store to home, are by definition highly stressed. You're now taking this stressed fish and putting it in a way too small, totally uncycled, often unfiltered tank. It violates every tenet the hobby was built on.
2) Letting a new fish repeatedly go through a tank cycle, and fighting against it with water changes and TT is super stressful on already stressed fish. Sure, some fish survive it, but way too many don't.
3) repeatedly catching and moving new arrivals from tank to tank also highly stressful
4) I understand the biology of TTM and in theory it is very effective in treating ich. Since all parasites have different life cycles, it is ONLY effective against ich, and ignores all other issues. Why focus QT attention on a single problem, when there are lots of potential issues, all of which will be made worse by having super stressed out fish.
5) Ich is the easiest issue to deal with in QT. If you see it, a quick course of cupramine is 100% effective, MUCH MUCH cheaper and easier, and much much much much much less stressful on fish than TTM.

I absolutely 100% do not see any sense in TTM

Better to have a proper QT tank, observe new arrivals and treat as necessary.

Michael

It's been clear as day for 25+ years how to properly quarantine and treat a fish such that it won't bring pathogens into the display tank. This isn't the cutting edge of husbandry. People just want to stick fish straight in the tank and not deal with the process, and then end up half assing measures when stuff goes sideways.

 

[CindyKz]

I no longer have access to the scientific journals that the experiments I wrote about were in but this article encompasses much of the general science behind the concept.
https://www.cefas.co.uk/publications/files/3402.pdf

You don't have access to articles you authored? That seems strange to me.

ETA (3rd time): I thought you authored the article as well, my apologies.