PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[Antics]

The most barbaric thing about this hobby are people that do not quarantine. We all know that ultimately there is no excuse not to quarantine. Saying you don't have the time, money or space to quarantine really means "I don't have the time, money or space for an aquarium".

We live in this society where you'd never support people not deworming or getting their dogs and cats their annual shots but when it comes to fish were all acting like preventative care is optional.

It's hypocritical at best. I don't need anyone to @ me about how they have a great tank and never quarantined and never had fish die. You are the exception and not the standard experience. It's irresponsible to suggest your behavior to others. Talking about fish developing immunities and resistances etc is the same as telling people to power through influenza or smallpox.

 

[ngoodermuth]

I do believe that copper is an effective treatment for ich and velvet, and my own experiences with failed QT were undoubtedly due to user error at some point in the process.

I personally had a bad experience with TTM as well- an ammonia spike that nearly took out my fish overnight- but I also believe that was caused by user-error (I forgot to replace the alert badge and didn't realize the ammonia was present until the fish were symptomatic and the level was over 1ppm)

Unfortunately, as necessary as it is...QT has a learning curve regardless of how it's conducted. I've been in the hobby for around 8 years now and have employed almost all of these techniques with some successes and some failures. Luckily for me (and my fish) my success rates are getting better with time, and my mistakes are proving less fatal than when I didn't QT at all. But, even as someone who "knows" and has done hours of research about treating fish...actually doing it successfully is a whole different thing and it takes practice and hands-on experience. Reef fish are delicate creatures, and the reef is a delicate ecosystem (case in point, the dire state of reef degradation in the wild...with reefs disappearing by the minute!) This is not an easy hobby to walk into, and even someone with years of experience will still suffer mistakes and failures.

I don't think it's fair to condemn an entire technique due to losses caused by user-error. I do understand the frustration as a vendor and the pressure of upholding a guarantee to remain competitive, but I think education will be more valuable than condescension. For the fishes sake, so that they live longer than the 14 days they are guaranteed. I can assure you that QT errors using copper cause fatalities as well...they just might occur more frequently outside of that 14-day window.

 

[NYAquatic]

Believe me I'm in no way advocating not QTing
You should always QT

in theory if you used 40s for TTM with new water and then had an appropriate sized QT for further observation and treatment it would work
But for 99% of hobbiests I believe that's impractical

It's a protocol that almost forces users to misuse it

 

[Brew12]

It's a protocol that almost forces users to misuse it

Now this is a statement I can agree with, especially for the larger "show" fish that I tend to associate you with. This is a much different statement than TTM is barbaric and should be stopped.

 

[Amoo]

Believe me I'm in no way advocating not QTing
You should always QT

in theory if you used 40s for TTM with new water and then had an appropriate sized QT for further observation and treatment it would work
But for 99% of hobbiests I believe that's impractical

It's a protocol that almost forces users to misuse it

Is it unreasonable at this point in the hobby for there to be some level of expectation from us as hobbiests for our online retailers to properly QT these fish they're selling us online, especially things that are more rare and of the WYSWYG variety?

 

[NewSaltWaterGuy]

*********************************
For the people that don't know what TTM is, here are some links that may help you or you may find interesting.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/tank-transfer-method.192655/ (article)
http://www.tanktransfermethod.com/node/1 (article)
http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2498638 (help thread)
*********************************

As for my opinion on this, I have never done TTM
But this is because I do not have the experience to do so nor the proper equipment.
I am coming straight from aquascaping freshwater tanks, to now migrating over a bit to the reefing community. In the FW community, we have never acted this TTM method out.
So I'm giving the next couple sentences from what I see and read.
It seems that TTM is a very effective method and use of quarantining fish, if done correctly. I do like the idea and it does make sense, will I be doing this, most likely in the future yes now that I know.
But for the people that are new to it (including me) I can see how one would mess up or do something wrong, especially if previous research on it (not just a scan over a page) is not done and you don't "really" know what your doing.
But I'm just new so don't take my word in stone.
As for the OP it seems like a very misguided post, "barbaric" isn't a word I would describe it. You cannot just say to Everyone who uses this method that its "barbaric and horrible for your inhabitants" because you don't know if they are doing it right or wrong. The people who are doing it wrong need knowledge on how to do it right, so give it to them if you wish. The people who are doing it right, are not abusing their fish on any level but protecting them from certain diseases(etc). Some say this is a stressful method on the fish. (This is again another "do your research" sentence) But again, this applies to people who do not know how to successfully do this method, or I could say, they don't have the proper ability to put this method to its full potential. I have read that you need a fast hand and net when using TTM, the stress comes mostly from catching the fish and chasing him around every 3 days or so. A person needs a swift catch while doing this to lessen the stress. Be fast but gentle on the fish, or whatever it is that's in your quarantine.

Just MO.

Thanks,
Nate

 

[Humblefish]

Before the velvet epidemic, TTM was my "go-to" QT protocol. I experienced the highest quarantine success rate using TTM. IMO; "stress" is probably the most overused term in this hobby. There's nothing stress-free about being shipped in a plastic bag or living in a glass box for a fish, and being in quarantine adds another layer of stress to their life. You can say netting a fish every 3 days is stressful (although I personally use a plastic colander), but I can assure you dosing copper poison into a QT is not something easy on any fish. Ammonia should never be a concern during TTM, because you have the luxury of using a reducer at any time - something you cannot do with copper.

The commonness of Marine Velvet Disease is TTM's greatest weakness. Hopefully someday velvet will go back to being more the exception than the rule. In the meantime, you must observe your fish closely for symptoms of velvet whilst performing TTM. Unfortunately, physical evidence of velvet (white dots) does not always manifest. Therefore, it is important to observe for these key behavioral symptoms of velvet:

• Reduced or complete loss of appetite.
• Heavy breathing, scratching, flashing, head twitching, erratic swimming behavior (unfortunately velvet shares all these same symptoms with ich & gill flukes.)
• Swimming into the flow of a powerhead (unique to velvet).
• Acting reclusive (velvet causes fish to be sensitive to light).

One of the nice things about TTM is you are able to easily switch over to using any medication, if needed. Prazipro can be used in conjunction in order to deworm, antibiotics can be dosed if the fish shows red marks/streaks, or copper/CP can be added at anytime if velvet is suspected. However, copper cannot be used on all species (e.g. mandarins, scaleless fish) and neither can CP (e.g. anthias, wrasses, Hippo Tangs). In addition, both medications are immunosuppressants and both can sometimes suppress appetite.

There's no perfect solution here, folks. There never will be. There will always be upsides & downsides to every method. But IMHO quarantining is still better than dropping a fish right in your DT and hoping for the best. Because sooner or later that will come back to bite you in the butt.

 

[Kyl]

I've had more success with proper TTM and then full observational periods for velvet than I did just doing TTM and in the tank, or just copper. For instance, I lost a smaller flame angel recently to velvet and flukes, but it happened in my barbaric 10 gallon TTM tank rather than my larger observation QT, or my DT. Testing with chelated copper focused kits seems to universally suck, and what happens if you come across a fish with ich that can't tolerate that therapeutic copper level while the others can, do I just send him back to the LFS and spread the infection love around some more?

This hobby isn't unique to alternative ways to do things, and I think anyone suggesting there is some magic bullet to fish disease is probably trying to sell you one of the reef safe cure alls that only serve to cure your wallet of dollars.

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I totally agree with the OP. TTM makes no sense on already stressed fish. We're supposed to care for and provide as stress free environment as possible, even in QT. TTM seems like the most stressful thing you could do to a fish.

 

[NewSaltWaterGuy]

I'm not reading any comments because this is probably a poop show, but I totally agree with the OP. TTM makes no sense on already stressed fish. We're supposed to care for and provide as stress free environment as possible, even in QT. TTM seems like the most stressful thing you could do to a fish.

I think of it this way.

1; you can NOT do TTM or quarantine at all, and suffer the consequences. if any.
2; you do, do TTM/quarantine and prevent illness, but you temporarily increase the fish's stress slightly (depending on how you do this)

I personally prefer the 2nd option if I did this.
Even in FW we quarantine, if you order a huge school of 100 fish, you usually put them all in the tank at once (same location they came from, would be no different in a QT). but say if I ordered 50 fish from place "B" and half of them have ICH or a disease that can wipe them all out, and I ordered 50 other fish, from place "A" and they were all fine, I would rather put 50 of them from either "B or A" in the main tank, with no inhabitants, and the other fish from the other place, in another QT tank.
Then after a while if they are all ok, and addressed the problems you had, you can put them both in the main tank together and you should be fine.
Sorry if that was confusing. You can apply that example to SW as well.

btw I'm not bashing you, just giving MO so sorry if it sounded kind of direct...!

I see where you are coming from however, when you say you don't want to stress the fish anymore from shipping (I imagine, right?) so you just want to throw them in with your already established tank with inhabitants lets say,
So if that fish you just added had ICH (or something else) and it spread to every other fish In that tank, would you still think TTM or QT period isn't alright? btw the fish you cared so much for dies in the end of this story.
Really I personally completely disagree with your post. Even for fish sometimes a life will throw you a lemon, but luckily most of us can help them dodge that big ol' lemon with a good TTM or QT. may suck but its good in the long run.

Kind of like high school, we ALL hate it (I know you do... don't lie to me lol!) but we have to do it Because its good for our future.
QT is good for our future and the fish(s) future...

I do recommend you read the comments as most are very educational, and you can learn something from each one.
Kind of like reading reviews on amazon.

 

[SashimiTurtle]

I think of it this way.

1; you can NOT do TTM or quarantine at all, and suffer the consequences. if any.
2; you do, do TTM/quarantine and prevent illness, but you temporarily increase the fish's stress slightly (depending on how you do this)

3; QT in one cycled aquarium with an observational time, then medicate if needed.

I do not like TTM as it has high risks for the same results of a (IMO) better method. I also do not like prophylacticly treating fish for diseases they may or may not have. I'd rather observe, diagnose, then treat if needed or determine I have a healthy fish that can go into the display. Medical doctors do not just give every patient they see a Rx for every drug in the world just because they came into the office... Veterinarians do not either. We shouldn't do that to our fish.

 

[NYAquatic]

Is it unreasonable at this point in the hobby for there to be some level of expectation from us as hobbiests for our online retailers to properly QT these fish they're selling us online, especially things that are more rare and of the WYSWYG variety?

I believe that we do the best QT/treatment possible, as do a number of other vendors.
would I trust anyone's fish to go into a reef without QT? ABSOLUTELY NOT!
To QT a fish, you need to use whatever protocol to observe/treat/medicate, for figure 30 days minimum. Without adding any new fish to that system.
Imagine how many fish a retailer sells in 30 days, and how many separate systems would be needed.
It's impossible.
You can keep a fish in QT for a year. AS long as you keep adding new fish to system it is not properly QTd.

 

[NYAquatic]

And again, the barbaric part is, IMO
1) putting marine fish into uncycled, often unfiltered tanks
2) in almost all occassions, putting them in too small a tank during TTM. It's just not practical to do it with 40 gal or larger tanks.

 

[NewSaltWaterGuy]

putting marine fish into uncycled, often unfiltered tanks

Unfiltered, yes I agree to disagree with that.
But if its uncycled, you must ask what uncycled is.
It means nothing. and uncycled tank is simply a tank that Does Not have BB in it in enough portion to make a large effect parameter wise. Then you must ask, what is removing the ammonia and nitrites, nitrates? usually people use different materials and chemicals to do this that do not stress the fish directly or itself period (most of the time) such as charcoal, or Purigen. Things of that nature. Which I have no burden with. If there is nothing to harm the fish, that does not cause stress so basically I'm saying, if your saying its uncycled and the tank actually has charcoal in it or something then that comment is pointless.

 

[MnFish1]

And again, the barbaric part is, IMO
1) putting marine fish into uncycled, often unfiltered tanks
2) in almost all occassions, putting them in too small a tank during TTM. It's just not practical to do it with 40 gal or larger tanks.

When you take a fish and put it into a 'cycled tank', the level of bacteria in that tank that will not just 'support' the bio load immediately. Especially in a small tank. The tank is 'cycled' only to the point of taking care of the waste products in the tank when it was cycled. So adding a new fish risks ammonia spikes, etc all of the problems that you are complaining about.

Where do you get your idea that 'most people' don't filter their tanks. A sponge filter is the one I have most commonly heard of being used in a quarantine tank.

Stability or another bacteria additive and a clean sponge filter would provide the same benefit as having a 'cycled tank', IMHO in this situation.

No offense meant here - but your comments do not make sense to me at all. There are MANY people who have display tanks less than 40 gallons - because the size of the fish they are buying are small. Why would doing TTM in less than a 40 gallon tank be barbaric? If you are talking about quarantining a 7 inch French angelfish in a 10 gallon aquarium, that would be Senseless. But - it would be senseless to put large fish in tanks less than 30-40 gallons for quarantine also.

It really seems like you are making broad statements with no real factual backup (about 'what most other people are doing').

 

[NewSaltWaterGuy]

Medical doctors do not just give every patient they see a Rx for every drug in the world just because they came into the office... Veterinarians do not either. We shouldn't do that to our fish.

I don't think that's what we are doing though... (I agree btw though) we are observing them, as you said, in a SEPERATE AREA so that it doesn't spread (if its even there) to anything else we own.

 

[Humblefish]

Medical doctors do not just give every patient they see a Rx for every drug in the world just because they came into the office... Veterinarians do not either. We shouldn't do that to our fish.

Waterborne diseases are much more likely to be spread than airborne diseases. This is why curators of most public aquariums prophylactically medicate all incoming fish. Oftentimes at a completely different facility to avoid aerosol transmission, cross contamination, etc.

Now, I'm not against passive observation in QT. But you have to know yourself and what your daily schedule is like. If you're a highly attentive person who can sit for 20-30 mins every day in front of your QT, then you should notice key behavioral signs of disease even if visible physical symptoms (i.e. white dots) do not manifest. But if you're busy or won't notice indicators of parasites/worms inside the gills (heavy breathing, scratching, head twitching, yawning, swimming into the flow) ... do yourself a favor and prophylactically treat for at least ich and flukes. TTM, when done in conjunction with Prazipro, was designed to do just that.

 

[MnFish1]

Waterborne diseases are much more likely to be spread than airborne diseases. This is why curators of most public aquariums prophylactically medicate all incoming fish. Oftentimes at a completely different facility to avoid aerosol transmission, cross contamination, etc.

Now, I'm not against passive observation in QT. But you have to know yourself and what your daily schedule is like. If you're a highly attentive person who can sit for 20-30 mins every day in front of your QT, then you should notice key behavioral signs of disease even if visible physical symptoms (i.e. white dots) do not manifest. But if you're busy or won't notice indicators of parasites/worms inside the gills (heavy breathing, scratching, head twitching, yawning, swimming into the flow) ... do yourself a favor and prophylactically treat for at least ich and flukes. TTM, when done in conjunction with Prazipro, was designed to do just that.

With all due respect - not sure what the waterborne vs airborne thing has to do with it and even in water, viruses, bacteria and parasites also have different likelihood's of spreading to another fish. Livestock, for example, held in close quarters have high rates of infection transmission. Additionally, just because most public aquariums do it doesn't make it the right thing to do for the home reefer. My guess is that public aquariums have magnitudes more fish coming in and out of their facility.

If someone does not have 20-30 minutes every day to spend looking at their fish (quarantined or not) they should probably not have a reef tank. Likewise - the same of more needs to spent monitoring each fish in the display tank to be certain there are no problems using your logic.

Lastly, and most importantly (IMHO) the most barbaric thing is people using medications designed for humans (metronidazole, fluconazole, cipro, kanamycin) for non-diagnosed illnesses. Using these indiscriminately (fluconazole for algae control) is irresponsible and dangerous if fungal resistance becomes an issue. It is too bad there aren't 'fish veterinarians' to prevent some of the misuse.

 

[melypr1985]

With all due respect - not sure what the waterborne vs airborne thing has to do with it and even in water, viruses, bacteria and parasites also have different likelihood's of spreading to another fish. Livestock, for example, held in close quarters have high rates of infection transmission. Additionally, just because most public aquariums do it doesn't make it the right thing to do for the home reefer. My guess is that public aquariums have magnitudes more fish coming in and out of their facility.

He was addressing the comment about doctors not prescribing meds to everybody - prophylactically. Illness and parasites spreading to other fish are not the point here... nobody seems to be suggesting that these thing won't spread to the other fish especially in close quarters. This whole thread was started with a simple (albeit long) statement that TTM is barbaric. The reasons why or why no should be the discussion.

There seems to be some discussion about QT in general and that TTM or even observation alone is better than treating prophylactically with copper or other meds. That's the second part of humblefish's statement. These large and respected institutions will run their fish through QT using copper and other meds regardless of symptoms being present so it's not like people like us are touting "RUN COPPER!" just for the heck of it. The point is, that copper, CP, TTM, hypo, observation.... these are all good and accepted methods of QT. They each have drawbacks and they each have positives. You, the individual reefer, must look at the fish you are about to purchase along with their size and other requirements before choosing a QT method for them. @NYAquatic I think that's the biggest issue here. People get comfortable with only one method to QT and don't take the time to learn (or even practice with) other QT methods that would better suit the fish they are buying. Yes, QT takes practice! I'll say that I have many tanks of various sizes for QT purposes. Depending on the fish I'm getting I'll pick a method and a tank that suits them specifically. Now, most people probably can't do something like this, but they can do their best to think it through, attempt to get the right meds/tanks for it, or choose a smaller/different fish that they have the ability to properly QT.

I don't think any of these QT methods are "barbaric" and I dont' see the point of saying such a thing besides getting attention to a thread that is likely to turn nasty at some point. QT is never stress free, neither is being caught out of the ocean, being shipped in buckets/bags/boxes ect to various points of the planet often several times within a week of being caught.

People do what they do. All we can do is suggest the what we know (from experience/experiments/science) would be proper and hope they make the decision to heed the advice.

 

[MnFish1]

He was addressing the comment about doctors not prescribing meds to everybody - prophylactically. Illness and parasites spreading to other fish are not the point here... nobody seems to be suggesting that these thing won't spread to the other fish

You missed my point. The reason I asked is because of the waterborne vs Airborne spread of disease likelihood Which I do not think is true.

And veterinarians do give prophylactic parasite and bacterial treatments to animals in crowded or other conditions where there is large turnover, Like the example humblefiah quotes about public aquaria. A practice many activists complain about.

I have no quarantine axe to grind. I do it a certain way I don’t care how others decide to do it unless there is conpelling reason n to change. Neither side here has any concrete data