PLEASE STOP USING TTM-IT'S BARBARIC

[MnFish1]

It's been clear as day for 25+ years how to properly quarantine and treat a fish such that it won't bring pathogens into the display tank. This isn't the cutting edge of husbandry. People just want to stick fish straight in the tank and not deal with the process, and then end up half assing measures when stuff goes sideways.

If thats so - why is there such discussion? In fact, IMHO you are incorrect - it is 'cutting edge'. 25 years ago there weren't the same products available as there are now, so its always 'cutting edge'. Even the knowledge of parasites has changed in 25 years. I dont see anyone suggesting sticking fish in their tank in this thread - so whats the point.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

It's been clear as day for 25+ years how to properly quarantine and treat a fish such that it won't bring pathogens into the display tank. This isn't the cutting edge of husbandry. People just want to stick fish straight in the tank and not deal with the process, and then end up half assing measures when stuff goes sideways.

I'm kind of confused by this. I don't think anyone is talking about just throwing a fish into the display. We're discussing different methods of QT (yes, TTM is a method of QT).

 

[Daniel@R2R]

It might be useful to know that @NYAquatic is a fish vendor, not just a hobbyist.

The only reason I bring that up is that he has a lot of experience with fish and ships very healthy fish. More than half of the fish I mentioned above were from NYAquatics. Probably 60% or more. For what it's worth, perhaps nothing

Agreed, but it's also important to point out that other vendors and professionals...such as some of the good folks who help so many people in this disease forum (@Humblefish and @melypr1985 are far from just casual hobbyists) do recommend and use TTM. I think Michael's opinion is valuable, but the tone in the opening post basically set the tone for the discussion...and it was quite aggressive and basically insinuates that anyone who uses TTM treats their fish in "barbaric" ways and shouldn't be heeded. That's a bit of a leap IMO.

 

[Amoo]

@NYAquatic Thanks for clearing that up. I would agree with mdbannister in the whole tone.

I lose track of how many people think you can keep a Nem in tank with some low power Orbit Marine light then show up in the Nem section with pics of a crappy looking Nem wondering why. My conclusion isn't that Orbit Marine lights suck or LEDs suck, my conclusion is literally people need to be educated on the difference in LEDs and PAR...etc. I know I'm in for a long Nem diagnosis when I ask for params and read "ph, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate" as the only given results. Doesn't mean those aren't useful, but it immediately tells me there is an education gap there that needs to be filled. You're saying the same thing here.

If you started off this post by saying you have a problem with the way people TTM I can totally see where you're coming from and I think a lot more people would get behind that. Like I said though, if the biggest problem you have with TTM is that people are doing it with too small of tanks, then that's not an issue with TTM that's an issue of education within the hobby, and judging by the number of calls you probably field weekly, a valid one. I just don't see the point in completely dumpstering the whole method when the problem you have with it is HOW people are doing it.

 

[Grey Guy]

I wouldn't accept a fish delivered with ich. I wouldn't buy a fish with ich. But if the fish is clean, I'm going to put it in my display tank.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

I wouldn't accept a fish delivered with ich. I wouldn't buy a fish with ich. But if the fish is clean, I'm going to put it in my display tank.

And there's no way you can know that right away without QT. Ich doesn't always show up in the bag.

 

[leahfiish]

I wouldn't accept a fish delivered with ich. I wouldn't buy a fish with ich. But if the fish is clean, I'm going to put it in my display tank.

And there's no way you can know that right away without QT. Ich doesn't always show up in the bag.

Plus ich isn't the only thing to look out for.
Hopefully you're buying from someplace that truly quarantines their fish.

 

[Crashjack]

It might be useful to know that @NYAquatic is a fish vendor, not just a hobbyist.

The only reason I bring that up is that he has a lot of experience with fish and ships very healthy fish. More than half of the fish I mentioned above were from NYAquatics. Probably 60% or more. For what it's worth, perhaps nothing

My guess is, he is tired of customers wanting refunds and then when he digs into the situation, he discovers that the purchaser was performing TTM... I don't mean every time but enough times that it has ticked him off. I'm also guessing that most of these folks with losses during TTM are inexperienced and/or just aren't maintaining their QTs properly-- they read about TTM on a website and give it a half-done whirl. I understand his frustration.

 

[Fishmanz]

If you're not quarantining, then you're living dangerously and got lucky. I say this as someone who just lost half his tank to velvet that came in on a Sea Hare (the best I can tell)

TTM is not effective against velvet and by the time you see it it is often too late.

I have lost fish to a bout of velvet now, it happened during a tank transfer adding someone else's livestock with mine, yet all my livestock and his were well established, meaning had them over a year at the very least.

 

[foxt]

I have never done TTM. I have used 30 day observation in a QT, along with milder prophlylactic treatment for flukes (praziquantel). When something emerges in QT, I then treat it. I have had to dose antibiotics for fish that came in with infections or wounds, or copper for fish that came in with Ich.

I have been lucky in that 80% of the fish I have bought have gone through 30 days of QT without developing signs of anything, and so far my dt is fine. For the 20% of fish that had issues, I have lost about half of them during treatment in QT, or before I could respond to an issue; the rest have made it through treatment.

Recent events have me considering switching from observation to prophylactic copper. Lately about half of the fish I receive have something wrong with them. Some have ich, or bacteria issues, or just die after a few days. Copper won't solve all of the potential issues, but it will catch some, more so than TTM.

I used to assume my new fish were healthy, and wait/watch for evidence to the contrary. Now, I am thinking that I should assume all fish have some issue that will eventually show itself, and I should just treat with copper right from the start and be sure. If I take that pessimistic - but pragmatic? - view, I will choose copper over TTM, since copper will cover more potential issues. But, isn't that potentially just as barbaric as TTM, subjecting a potentially healthy fish to prophylactic copper?

 

[LuckyPhil]

I Love TTM (+ Prazi)!
I've completed it about 5-6 times now and no fish were stressed from it.
In fact when I TTM'd my tangs I would always have Nori waiting for them in the new tank and they love it!

I have tried Copper, testing both morning and night to ensure the therapeutic levels were maintained and I found this stressed the fish a lot more than TTM as they would refuse to eat for days, so I had to obviously stop treating, which means the clocks starts from 0 again.

It doesn't have to be complicated.
Also my main DT is ich free so I always use the tank water for TTM and treat it like a water change.

When you mention about cycled water, I treat TTM for 12 days and move to a QT with live rock and never had issues with ammonia.
I think you would have more of an issue with cycled QT and/or ammonia levels with copper since its not recommended to include Live Rock with Copper where treatment is recommended for +30 days.
Also there are a few users who have treated copper where ich has reappeared (eg. ngoodermuth, and Jeffdstafford) - could have been a mistake in the process (cross-contamination) but these copper treatments were documented regularly and still did not eliminate ich.

I think whats more barbaric is a good % of the reefing community who fail to QT their fish which leads to introducing ich/velvet and wiping out their whole livestock.

It is very common reading threads with the "I know I know I should've QT'ed but..."

After a few TTMs I feel like its a normal routine, like brushing teeth now
I feel TTM is easily manageable when your know your tank is ich free, its just like an extension to water changes.

 

[Friday24]

I've never done TTM, but I do have a 30g QT that I use on all my fish after finally breaking down my tank after a couple years of dealing with ich. I usually let the fish settle for a day and then go hypo for 30 days observing for any disease in the process. I like hypo because it takes care of ich and flukes and I can safely treat for bacterial and fungal infections should they arise. IMO hypo seems a lot less stressful than TTM and your not exposing your fish to heavy metal like copper which I read in the past reduces the fishes life span. I'm by no means an expert so correct me if my method seems inaccurate.

 

[DLHDesign]

I am also very much against keeping fish in uncyled tanks, even for a few days.

When I have run TTM in the past, I use water I've just pulled out of my DT as part of a water change. I can't recall if this was just something I did for convenience or if it's actually part of the "official" TTM process, but I've always believed this to remove the "uncycled" aspect you are referring to. Am I mistaken in that, or is my use of ex-DT water for TTM somehow novel?

I can certainly understand how over-stocking a TTM tank (be it a 10g or 40g) can be a significant problem. It's one of the main reasons why all my fish started off small in size and in limited numbers at one time. It's taken time to build up my collection (still on-going) and it means some of my fishes are (currently) "less" impressive, but patience is a cornerstone of this hobby. I think anyone that rushes through TTM with too large/many fishes is going to suffer far more problems down the road until/unless they learn patience. In other words; improper TTM procedure is no more a significant problem than many other problems in this hobby - many of which can also impact the bottom line of a retailer (for example; improper drip and/or temp acclimation).

 

[Maritimer]

A few folks have mentioned using water from their display in the TTM process. Assuming that one's display is disease-free, that ought to provide "mature" water, which is no doubt better than fresh-mixed - but it's not the same thing as a "cycled tank". The bacteria that consume ammonia don't live in the water, they were left behind in the liverock. When the fish in TTM produce ammonia, there will be no bacteria to convert it to nitrite/nitrate.

~Bruce

 

[4FordFamily]

I wouldn't accept a fish delivered with ich. I wouldn't buy a fish with ich. But if the fish is clean, I'm going to put it in my display tank.

This will not and does not work.

LFS keep fish in low levels of copper which masks parasites. Nearly every fish you buy will have ich, velvet, flukes, brook, or more than one.

 

[Brew12]

I have to disagree with much of the OP's original post.

Fish are shipped overnight where they are in bags for 12+ hours in less than 1/4 gallon of water. A 10g QT has 40 times more water and only holds the fish for 6 times as long. I get that we don't want to maintain shipping conditions for a week but if the fish size is appropriate for a 10g QT I don't think the tanks not being cycled matters. In fact, I would be much more worried about the fish being put in a improperly cycled QT for 30 days than an uncycled tank for 3 days.
I also don't agree that the transfers themselves are overly stressful if done correctly. If water from the DT is used in each set up, the water parameters will be almost identical in each tank. If freshly mixed saltwater is used the water parameters will also be almost identical if mixed correctly from the same bucket of salt.
I do my best to never net fish and use a strainer instead. When the lights are out you can scoop the PVC (or other structure) the fish is sleeping in with a strainer and dump the fish into the next tank. No chasing, no nets, just a 15 minute break in its nap.

That aside, I personally don't recommend TTM but only because of how limited it is in what it treats. I also don't recommend treating for copper for 30 days and then removing it from the system. My "go to" method is to treat in copper for 12-14 days and transfer to a clean tank.

 

[Amoo]

LFS keep fish in low levels of copper which masks parasites.

If anything I've seen in this thread so far is barbaric it's that. Not saying you're wrong Triple F, but the fact this practice has gone on for so long and is allowed to continue is literally one of the worst things about this hobby.

"Hey let's mask any potential problems and in the meantime hope we don't build up any long term resistances"

 

[Drauka99]

I've done TTM, after i added fish to a system and was foolish and didn't QT them and ended up with an ich outbreak. The fish were all perfectly fine through the TTM process. I had several fish and a 20 long was sufficient. Never saw a measurable rise in ammonia for the 3 days they were in each tank. The fish were eating and happy within minutes of each transfer.

I agree, barbaric is the masking of symptoms that most LFS and vendors do.

 

[4FordFamily]

If anything I've seen in this thread so far is barbaric it's that. Not saying you're wrong Triple F, but the fact this practice has gone on for so long and is allowed to continue is literally one of the worst things about this hobby.

"Hey let's mask any potential problems and in the meantime hope we don't build up any long term resistances"

Agree. I understand the business case for doing so, however. Not agreeing with the practice just saying economically it keeps fish prices low. We just need to know to treat our fish when we get them from anywhere.

 

[Amoo]

Agree. I understand the business case for doing so, however. Not agreeing with the practice just saying economically it keeps fish prices low. We just need to know to treat our fish when we get them from anywhere.

This is 100% the reason I buy 99% of my livestock directly through Divers Den. It's not the cheapest and it's not the best, but at least they're trying to set a standard and do something other then mask problems. By the time we get done buying all the meds/salt...etc anyways it probably works out cheaper for us if more places actually did what Diver's Den does.

We don't want to talk about that though, let's focus on TTM