Poll: Alkalinity Monitoring Options

[Terence]

The Mindstream is going to completely leapfrog everything.

Given your knowledge and experience in this space, I would love to hear some facts to back that up.

The Mindstream:

- Does not measure dKH - it measures Carbonate Alkalinity (which is not the same as Total Alkalinity) in a yet method unproven in the marine aquarium. This method uses salinity (derived from electrical conductivity and not the disc) along with a reading of CO2 (from the disc) and through a mathematical formula comes up with a number. If any of those variables is even off a tiny bit, the number can be quite a bit wrong. If you want to know more about the difference between CA and TA (which can be more than 3%), I found this a good read http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1634434&postcount=2 - My opinion is that every alkalinity testing system shown thus far is better than this measurement.
- Does not measure: Mg, Phosphate, Nitrate
- Does not have any hooks to systems for automated dosing of balling, calcium reactors, etc. Every other device coming out for alk monitoring has at least shown this kind of automation is part of a solution.
- Will cost $900
- REQUIRES you to spend $35/mo for their web service and a disc
- Has a first year cost is $1320. Annual cost at two years: $870. Annual cost at year three: $720 (assuming they don't raise the price or go out of business due to loss of funding)
- Costs all that money for something that only measures part of the things you want on your aquarium, controls nothing, doses nothing.
- Comes from a company that has delivered what products to the marine aquarium hobby in the past? Who do they have in their company that is a true hobbyist? The original inventor (Jim Clark, a super nice guy BTW) has been diluted to having almost no say in the company any longer and the last time I saw him was in DC. In San Diego I talked to the Chief Scientist and the CEO - also nice guys - I asked them both how the device worked in their aquariums - their responses "I don't keep an aquarium, I do the technology" and "Oh, I don't have an aquarium, I am the CEO".

So that's how I see things, and I would be interested in the opinions of the other inventors of other devices mentioned at the top of this thread to get their thoughts, since having actually built something, they know the challenges and thus know what they are talking about.

The Mindstream may be an amazing device, and may very well do great on the market, but at this point, to make such a bold statement, one should be prepared to back it up.

 

[Eric Tang]

My vote is with the Alkatronic I am lucky to have one of their Focustronic lights and am hopefully going to be getting another soon and if the Alkatronic is as good as their light then this will be a top notch controller that has been designed and built by hobbyists and professional people who want the best for their aquariums and a world class controller that is as easy to use but is clever enough to be adaptable to fit within most people's systems. Aquarists have been consulted and kept totally up to date with the build on this which is quite groundbreaking in itself, this has given the hobbyists the rarest of opportunity to give feedback and remove the not necessary and to incorporate what they a. Either required or b. Would like to see incorporated within the build specification of this controller. Yet they are hoping to include the wish list of everyone and still be in the best price bracket for a controller.
This controller needs to be the go to for the majority of aquarists and it makes me wonder how they intend to top this on their next innovative build.

thank you Martin. Don't worry, there are plenty more up our sleeves with new products. We just need to get the FOCUS 1 and the Alkatronic properly launched before we release more news on new products. Not wise to handle too much at once!!

 

[Amoo]

Comes from a company that has delivered what products to the marine aquarium hobby in the past? Who do they have in their company that is a true hobbyist? The original inventor (Jim Clark, a super nice guy BTW) has been diluted to having almost no say in the company any longer and the last time I saw him was in DC. In San Diego I talked to the Chief Scientist and the CEO - also nice guys - I asked them both how the device worked in their aquariums - their responses "I don't keep an aquarium, I do the technology" and "Oh, I don't have an aquarium, I am the CEO".

Can you expand upon these two things here?

1. Why does a company have to have to have released a product previously to be considered a viable alternative?

2. Why does somebody need a phD in Aquariums to deal with the technical side of reading photo-response in sea water under parameters given to them?

I just for the life of m can't figure out why the guy who is currently "the big fish in the pond" is all over Mindstream? Seems to me all you have done here is draw more attention to it or are somehow offended by the attention it has received. We're most all real familiar with the whole situation from the kickstarter and beyond, and even if we're not, so what? Mindstream is a company as is Neptune, the bottom line is neither of you are going to start giving away products anytime soon at or even remotely close to anything resembling a loss to your bottom line. Whether or not the CEO of Neptune or Mindstream even has a beta fish in their house is kind of irrelevant.

I asked you in your vendor forum for specific information on accuracy of your device and how it is tested and how accuracy was tested and what it was tested against and your only response was along the lines of "I don't want to get into the specifics, just know it's accurate." Okay, sure I'll just take your word for it, the same way a bunch of people took your word that the 2016 APEX brain was ready to go out when we all know it had tons of issues. Come on man, I know your job is sales and marketing, but all we're ALL trying to do here is wrap our heads around all of this Alkalinity monitoring stuff, determine which way we all feels works best for our system and do it at a price point we all feel we can stomach. The details about all of these systems are going to start trickling out along with user accuracy tests...etc once a bunch of units have hit the market.

I'm just unsure why you would politely dodge a question asked specifically about accuracy, then turn around and jump on another company with a competing product about it's accuracy. I'm sorry Terrance, but just the name "Neptune" doesn't necessarily mean "oh it's going to be great because it's Neptune". This is turning into a much bigger market than just the controller market and Neptune isn't the only legitimate fish in the sea here.

Edit: For clarity sake the Trident is on my short list of which monitor I will choose, so i don't want this to come across as me taking a shot at Neptune or their products as I'm considering investing myself. Do keep in mind though, this is a discussion about alaklinity MONITORS not controllers. Some of these systems can do both, some can't. Either way all of these systems may be able to provide us with information to allow us to make an informed decision on how we the user want to handle the situation.

 

[Anthony Mckay]

I got few request for taking a voice here and short product info because not so many informations are available for Customers(not so many like in Alkatronic thread - btw I know Jonas and I'm sure that it will be good device also! )
Our Kore7th have Bluetooth and Wifi(using Cube Wifi-Bluetooth bridge which will be compatible also with all existing Kore5th dosing stations, led lamps, hybrid , etc). USB port is used for safe firmware updates.
In October we start sales to closed group of chosen users which will do final beta tests for us and we plan release device in November/December this year.
Actual precision of kHLab in Precise mode is 0.02dKh - in normal mode - it's 0.05ml.
Device come with initial reagent bottle which allow for perform 250 tests.
Cause it was pointed here - Kore 7th have 7 channels - 3 required by kHLab, 4 left for dosing alkalinity solution, calcium, magnesium and mineral salt(like in full balling).
The same about calcium reactor - it's only needed to check alkalinity and dial reactor because during corals growth calcium and alkalinity drop in relative same ratio like they are dissolved from media reactor(also magnesium, if you are using natural corals gravel).
When device work in "guard mode" - it adjust not only alkalinity doses - but also all other channels (growing corals take minerals from water in specific ratio) programmed to adjust flows depending from changes reported by kHLab module.

PS. Actual version of kHLab work using high precision/fast responding pH probe.
It have also second pH probe port which can be use to measure pH in calcium reactor/main tank and control solenoid valve(co2 dose) if its needed. So Kore7th is like Kore5th but with additional pH computer (2 x pH probe port) and WiFi/USB support.
It was very easy to implement because main board from Kore7th include all options available in Kore5th - digital temperature probe, AWC module, ATO module, stirrer connection etc.
About optical measuring - we have prepared "lab module" which use optical sensors and high frequency probe (for measuring more parameters than only alkalinity) but it's too fast to talk about that now - device is still in alpha tests (it have to be easy in operate and maintenance)
Definitely this year and next one will belong for alkalinity modules coming from many manufacturers!

Best regards

Przemek

Thanks Przemek you've going alot more info on the kH lab and thats much appreciated.
Its gone to the top of my list for the moment so look forward to more info and test results in the near future.
Regards
Anthony

 

[JonasRoman]

My vote is with the Alkatronic I am lucky to have one of their Focustronic lights and am hopefully going to be getting another soon and if the Alkatronic is as good as their light then this will be a top notch controller that has been designed and built by hobbyists and professional people who want the best for their aquariums and a world class controller that is as easy to use but is clever enough to be adaptable to fit within most people's systems. Aquarists have been consulted and kept totally up to date with the build on this which is quite groundbreaking in itself, this has given the hobbyists the rarest of opportunity to give feedback and remove the not necessary and to incorporate what they a. Either required or b. Would like to see incorporated within the build specification of this controller. Yet they are hoping to include the wish list of everyone and still be in the best price bracket for a controller.
This controller needs to be the go to for the majority of aquarists and it makes me wonder how they intend to top this on their next innovative build.

Thanks
Of course I will not comments in this thread concerning the main question, there people should judge themselves freely.

Just wanted to answer your last question: yes, we are already in start phase of doing a 4 dose-Balling-slave- unit(for dosing all the elements,KH, Ca, Mg, trace,), controled and fine-tuned by Alkatronic. Stay tuned, will be more info soon. But we will launch Alkatronic first, and if you own an Alkatronic it will be favourable to buy our dose-station, but still, also without this extra dose-station, your Alkatronic will still have its all features, as it is a standalone, like dosing HCO3 and controling Ca-reactor or other Ballingstsations through it´s socket. (More info in our own threads). So we are increasing the Product-family in favour to our Alkatronic-users.

Regards
Jonas

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Given your knowledge and experience in this space, I would love to hear some facts to back that up.

The Mindstream:

- Does not measure dKH - it measures Carbonate Alkalinity (which is not the same as Total Alkalinity) in a yet method unproven in the marine aquarium. This method uses salinity (derived from electrical conductivity and not the disc) along with a reading of CO2 (from the disc) and through a mathematical formula comes up with a number. If any of those variables is even off a tiny bit, the number can be quite a bit wrong. If you want to know more about the difference between CA and TA (which can be more than 3%), I found this a good read http://www.thereeftank.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1634434&postcount=2 - My opinion is that every alkalinity testing system shown thus far is better than this measurement.

Without getting into any other issues, why do you think knowing total alkalinity is better than carbonate alkalinity?

IMO, if you could measure carbonate alkalinity easily, that's what we would use. We don't care about total alkalinity (do you?)?

In fact, the Midnstream will allow you to know bicarbonate and carbonate as well. Those three values may actually be better parameters to monitor and control than total alkalinity, since they are actually what a coral takes up. Corals do not care about borate alkalinity.

 

[Terence]

Thanks for chiming in Randy. I actually welcome a good discussion on these matters.

I had thought about that myself already. Yes, carbonate alkalinity is really what we might want to know, but how would the average hobbyist calibrate the device or even do a gut check with another third party test kit or method? I know there is a way but isn't it a bit complicated for the average hobbyist?

How sound is the methodology of any device that we wouldn't want to have something else to easily check it against from time to time. Or do we just trust that the thing is on point with the new disc we get every month?

And as to why does it matter if a company has experience in the hobby - because it gives them important context. I would never buy the first fishing rod made by a company where the key executives don't fish. I personally believe it's relevant. That's just my opinion.

I think this is overall a valuable discussion. In due time (our Trident has only been announced for a few weeks, not years) we will release more info as to how we know its precision. For some of the other devices, including the Mindstream, that line has not even been drawn yet.

My post here was merely to see if Jake could provide more insight for such a bold claim. I personally see more value in every other device listed above and would have make the same comment I did above even if it were a year ago before we even begun development.

 

[CodyRVA]

This obviously won't be the most popular view point, but here goes; my .02...

Simply put, tech for techs sake. IMO these devices are 100% a novelty item that your average reefer will not invest in mainly because of the expense. That being said, that's perfectly fine, these companies likely know they're marketing these high end products to the die hard reefers who are willing to foot the bill to have the latest tech... iPhone ∞

When my system has been at it's finest, a weekly test was all that was required. Upon in depth, daily, inspection, I knew without testing if something was wrong, I didn't need a $500+ unit to tell me there was an issue. I fear reefers will lose their savviness or desire to make these observations due to this "sit and forget" mentality and solely rely on tech to solve all their problems, which it won't. IME nothing in this hobby is set and forget; you will eventually always hit a wall that requires action. I don't think anyone is touting or marketing these products as guaranteed success, but the message of "less work" is clearly the motivation to buy these devices.

Lastly, there are obvious benefits to these devices; I don't mean to bash them entirely. I can only fathom the amount of work that has gone into making these devices a reality. That being said, I truly believe this is a perfect example of tech for tech's sake that will not guarantee success and has a high risk on the ROI. Assuming I had the funds for these devices, I would personally make an investment into my system where the ROI is much more solidified: lights, skimmer, controller, etc.

 

[JonasRoman]

Without getting into any other issues, why do you think knowing total alkalinity is better than carbonate alkalinity?

IMO, if you could measure carbonate alkalinity easily, that's what we would use. We don't care about total alkalinity (do you?)?

In fact, the Midnstream will allow you to know bicarbonate and carbonate as well. Those three values may actually be better parameters to monitor and control than total alkalinity, since they are actually what a coral takes up. Corals do not care about borate alkalinity.

I do not fully agree Randy.
1) First of all, the relationship, quote, between carbonatealkalinity and total alkalinity is quite stable so we can with no problem use total alkalinity as a very good measure of true carbonatealkalinity.
2) the need of an absolute ideal value of total alkalinity and/or carbonate alkalinity has not a narrow "window" at all. It is not important if you have 7.5 or 7.9 in dKH. No one knows so exact the ideal value and ideal value can be different in different system. Therefore the accuracy is actually not so important as precision. The important thing is the stability and there comes precision of the method in. So as accuracy is less important than precision in this case it is not important to differentiate the total alkalinity into true carbonate alkalinity. Especially not when the method for measuring only carbonatealkalinity is expensive and with not so good precision for the amount of money we are talking about
3) finaly I think also for the health of the cell biology in the marine system, it is actually of same importance to know total alkalinity as carbonatealkalinity. Thus, I actually thinks that a coral bothers also for Borate alkalinity as that influence the ability for cell to keep correct intracellulair pH etc.

So , I really do not see any need for knowing and/or measuring only carbonate alkalinity, even if you could do it with high precision to an affordable price.

Regards
Jonas Roman

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

First, I was responding to a criticism of Mindstream's use of carbonate alkalinity rather than total alkalinity, pointing out that carbonate alkalinity is at least as useful (more so, IMO). It is definitely not less useful. You might debate that it is or is not more useful, sure.

If you make the assumption that you can calculate carbonate alkalinity from total alkalinity (your point 1), then you can obviously do the opposite and go from carbonate alkalinity to total alkalinity (if you wanted total alkalinity), with the same level of errors.

I do not fully agree Randy.
1) First of all, the relationship, quote, between carbonatealkalinity and total alkalinity is quite stable so we can with no problem use total alkalinity as a very good measure of true carbonatealkalinity.

Unless, of course, you dose borate (whether you know it or not; e.g., Seachem Marine Buffer)) or use a salt mix with borate levels above natural levels (whether you know it or not).

 

[Amoo]

@JonasRoman If Carbonate and Total Alkalinity track so similarly does it really matter which one you track as long as you are tracking one of them?, as you mentioned it's the stability we are looking for. My question is you mentioned "only measuring carbonate alkalinity with not so good precision", do we have that information yet as to how precise it is actually monitoring at?

 

[Amoo]

Also @Randy Holmes-Farley How much if any of all of this can be verified by snap shotting a reading given by the mindstream and checking that against an ICP test?

 

[JonasRoman]

First, I was responding to a criticism of Mindstream's use of carbonate alkalinity rather than total alkalinity, pointing out that carbonate alkalinity is at least as useful (more so, IMO). It is definitely not less useful. You might debate that it is or is not more useful, sure.

If you make the assumption that you can calculate carbonate alkalinity from total alkalinity (your point 1), then you can obviously do the opposite and go from carbonate alkalinity to total alkalinity (if you wanted total alkalinity), with the same level of errors.




Unless, of course, you dose borate (whether you know it or not; e.g., Seachem Marine Buffer)) or use a salt mix with borate levels above natural levels (whether you know it or not).

I understood that
I just wanted to opponent the claim that measure carbonatealkalinity should be better. I do not think so as we have a rather constant relationship between TA/CA and then the choice of method instead is decided by which one has the best reliability concerning precision.(comparing to cost also).

I do not think that it is a common reality if a reality at all with a tank based on a such strange composition of salt mix that we get a borate alkalinity of significance. All brands have quite normal ratio of CA/TA I would guess. ? That seems like a more theoretical consideration. Do we really believe an aquarium out there have a Boratalkalinity if so much so the total alkalinity will not in a fair way reflect the carbonatealkalinity? I think this is a "no problem".

Jonas

 

[Anthony Mckay]

I've been tracking the new products with intetest but amazes me how people are arguing about which one is best when they've not even been released. Also some may be better for some and not for others due to different set ups, equipment they already have and also the biggy for most of us the cost, running cost and reliability as to me for one spending so much money on one piece of equipment is a major investment. Then there's not only the product itself but just as important is the support. No point buying something then never been able to get hold of anyone at the company to help if anything goes wrong. These are mostly new pieces of tech and even with the best will in the world they can't test them in every scenario so there will be bugs and issues so that person on the end of the phone or who actually answers your emails is worth its weight in gold.
How can anyone say this is better than that as new ones are popping up seemingly daily but only the KHG has been released with very good results so that is the benchmark at the moment.
So I will reserve judgement on aĺl until they are released as until then we won't exactly know their functionality or results.
Anthony

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Also @Randy Holmes-Farley How much if any of all of this can be verified by snap shotting a reading given by the mindstream and checking that against an ICP test?

ICP cannot measure CO2 or any type of alkalinity.

 

[Amoo]

ICP cannot measure CO2 or any type of alkalinity.

I meant specifically the Borate and is there an equation to get there with that considering the natural balance of ions you talk about in your ICP test thread.

 

[LobsterOfJustice]

I didn't realize the KH Guardian monitor and Pro are compatible with apex, but based on a few earlier posts it sounds like this is the case? From what I understand, the difference between monitor and pro is pro has onboard "control" (I.e. Dosing) while the monitor does not, but if you connect the monitor version to an apex can you then get that functionality via dosing pumps controlled by the apex?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I meant specifically the Borate and is there an equation to get there with that considering the natural balance of ions you talk about in your ICP test thread.

From pH and total boron, borate alkalinity can be calculated.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I do not think that it is a common reality if a reality at all with a tank based on a such strange composition of salt mix that we get a borate alkalinity of significance. All brands have quite normal ratio of CA/TA I would guess. ? That seems like a more theoretical consideration. Do we really believe an aquarium out there have a Boratalkalinity if so much so the total alkalinity will not in a fair way reflect the carbonatealkalinity? I think this is a "no problem".

It may not be a common issue, but historically, at least, some salt mixes have had way, way more borate alk than seawater (10x for old Seachem salt mix, 3x for crystal Sea Marinemix), while some had almost none.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

http://web.archive.org/web/20001215...om/fish2/aqfm/1999/mar/features/1/default.asp

 

[Amoo]

From pH and total boron, borate alkalinity can be calculated.

Thanks Randy, so the tank snapshot would need to encompass a good number of parameters, but at least we may eventually have a way to check the accuracy of this thing, even if there are a few of us leaning on you for some serious maths