Poll: To skim or not to skim

[dbl]

Okay folks...let's all remember, R2R is a friendly forum. We all have opinions and it's okay to disagree, but we do it respectfully. Please stay on topic and omit the negativity.

 

[madweazl]

Okay folks...let's all remember, R2R is a friendly forum. We all have opinions and it's okay to disagree, but we do it respectfully. Please stay on topic and omit the negativity.

Sorry, I knew it was wrong and did it anyways. There is a reason I enjoy this forum and my post was out of line (more like that "other" place).

 

[Dancingmad]

Couldn't agree more. Some skimmers that sounds like a pneumatic drill and have the quality of a toy you get inside a Christmas cracker with a price tag of an ultra scoly to match

Shoot - I forgot to mention the sound too. My living room is so quiet now lol. Its just frustrating after 10 years of trying all manner and price point of skimmers I can't find one that works for me. I'm not saying skimmerless is right for everyone. One of my fav things about this hobby - the variety of rigs n' setups that produce success(or at least sustains life - the measure of success is different for everyone I guess)!

My first skimmerless tank is pictured above my name - I took that pic about 3 years into the build. The substrate is crushed oyster shell from a feed store too (apparently thats a faux pax by todays standards?).

 

[Gomi's Reef]

Shoot - I forgot to mention the sound too. My living room is so quiet now lol. Its just frustrating after 10 years of trying all manner and price point of skimmers I can't find one that works for me. I'm not saying skimmerless is right for everyone. One of my fav things about this hobby - the variety of rigs n' setups that produce success(or at least sustains life - the measure of success is different for everyone I guess)!

My first skimmerless tank is pictured above my name - I took that pic about 3 years into the build. The substrate is crushed oyster shell from a feed store too (apparently thats a faux pax by todays standards?).

Had a couple of bubble magus over the years that were so loud it was offensive. DC pumps help A LOT. But have increased price tags associated.

 

[Scrubber_steve]

I don't use a skimmer, the survey asked "please discuss in thread why not".

Two reasons for using a skimmer.
1 - the removal of organic matter, both disolved & particulate.
2 - Aeration of the water.

1. (I use activated carbon & sponges)
Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration
By Ken S. Feldman, Allison A. Place, Sanjay Joshi, Gary White

Our earlier research on the topic of carbon nutrient levels in marine aquaria (Feldman, 2008; Feldman, 2009; Feldman, 2010) has provided experimental documentation for four conclusions that impact on TOC management in our reef tanks:

* Protein skimming (i.e., bubbles) is not very effective at removing TOC from aquarium water, depleting typical reef tank water of only ~ 20 - 35% of the post-feeding TOC present.

* Granulated Activated Carbon filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present.

* And, quite intriguingly, the natural biological filtration, which starts with bacteria and other microbes, is remarkable in its capacity to remediate reef tank water of TOC, easily removing 50% or more of the post-feeding TOC increase in tank water.


2. (I grow algae)
From Eric Borneman articles – The need to breathe Parts 1, 2, & 3. oxygenation experiments-
Conclusions and Recommendations
- Aquaria can and do become saturated or supersaturated with oxygen during the day, and this is a result of oxygen resulting from irradiance of photosynthetic organisms. In no case was saturation or supersaturation measured without photosynthesis.

- Air stones and skimmers appear to be a very effective means of oxygenating small water volumes. Their effect on larger water volumes appears to be less. While the effect may be relative, the larger tanks and systems described here utilized powerful skimming or air pumps, and to gain an equivalent amount of oxygen as occurs in small water volumes would likely require air pumps or skimmers far larger than those commonly employed by aquarists. This includes data from a coral farm where very large commercial sized skimmers and high surface area/volume ratios failed to produce water even nearly saturated with oxygen at night with a heavy coral population.

- Using algae in reverse daylight tanks appears to be an effective means of keeping oxygen levels at normoxic levels at night. This effect is pronounced even in tanks and systems that employ protein skimmers and airstones.

I'll add that in a room full of people, unflued gas heaters & cooking, etc, where co2 levels can be 1000ppm, this is what a skimmer is pumping into the water.

 

[Gomi's Reef]

I don't use a skimmer, the survey asked "please discuss in thread why not".

Two reasons for using a skimmer.
1 - the removal of organic matter, both disolved & particulate.
2 - Aeration of the water.

1. (I use activated carbon & sponges)
Feature Article: Bacterial Counts in Reef Aquarium Water: Baseline Values and Modulation by Carbon Dosing, Protein Skimming, and Granular Activated Carbon Filtration
By Ken S. Feldman, Allison A. Place, Sanjay Joshi, Gary White

Our earlier research on the topic of carbon nutrient levels in marine aquaria (Feldman, 2008; Feldman, 2009; Feldman, 2010) has provided experimental documentation for four conclusions that impact on TOC management in our reef tanks:

* Protein skimming (i.e., bubbles) is not very effective at removing TOC from aquarium water, depleting typical reef tank water of only ~ 20 - 35% of the post-feeding TOC present.

* Granulated Activated Carbon filtration is quite effective at stripping reef tank water of its TOC load, removing 60 - 85% of the TOC present.

* And, quite intriguingly, the natural biological filtration, which starts with bacteria and other microbes, is remarkable in its capacity to remediate reef tank water of TOC, easily removing 50% or more of the post-feeding TOC increase in tank water.


2. (I grow algae)
From Eric Borneman articles – The need to breathe Parts 1, 2, & 3. oxygenation experiments-
Conclusions and Recommendations
- Aquaria can and do become saturated or supersaturated with oxygen during the day, and this is a result of oxygen resulting from irradiance of photosynthetic organisms. In no case was saturation or supersaturation measured without photosynthesis.

- Air stones and skimmers appear to be a very effective means of oxygenating small water volumes. Their effect on larger water volumes appears to be less. While the effect may be relative, the larger tanks and systems described here utilized powerful skimming or air pumps, and to gain an equivalent amount of oxygen as occurs in small water volumes would likely require air pumps or skimmers far larger than those commonly employed by aquarists. This includes data from a coral farm where very large commercial sized skimmers and high surface area/volume ratios failed to produce water even nearly saturated with oxygen at night with a heavy coral population.

- Using algae in reverse daylight tanks appears to be an effective means of keeping oxygen levels at normoxic levels at night. This effect is pronounced even in tanks and systems that employ protein skimmers and airstones.

I'll add that in a room full of people, unflued gas heaters & cooking, etc, where co2 levels can be 1000ppm, this is what a skimmer is pumping into the water.

I'm in love with this post

 

[PDR]

I currently do not run a skimmer on either of my tanks. I ran a skimmer for the first 12 months I had my reefer 350 and I really didn't like it. I didn't like having to clean it, I didn't like the constant adjustments trying to get it dialed in, and I didn't like the skimmer freaking out every time I fed the tank.

I converted the skimmer section to a fuge and so far have seen no reason to change back. I don't know what my oxygen level is (like most people I assume), but I don't have any reason to believe it is low. As far as nutrient export, filter socks and the fuge does a perfect job for me.

The only reason I would consider running one in the future is if I were having issues maintaining proper Ph, or nutrients get out of control.

 

[Gomi's Reef]

I currently do not run a skimmer on either of my tanks. I ran a skimmer for the first 12 months I had my reefer 350 and I really didn't like it. I didn't like having to clean it, I didn't like the constant adjustments trying to get it dialed in, and I didn't like the skimmer freaking out every time I fed the tank.

I converted the skimmer section to a fuge and so far have seen no reason to change back. I don't know what my oxygen level is (like most people I assume), but I don't have any reason to believe it is low. As far as nutrient export, filter socks and the fuge does a perfect job for me.

The only reason I would consider running one in the future is if I was having issues maintaining proper Ph, or nutrients get out of control.

With a large enough fuge the macroalgae will comfortably supply the tank with sufficient O2 and strip CO2. Gas exchange is a non issue. With an adequate fuge. Other methods of skimless I don't know...

 

[bobman]

I have had many tanks over the years most successful some not so much. I can say a skimmer was not the deciding factor which made them successful or not. What I have learned over the years is it depends on the size of the system. Smaller tanks you can honestly get away without much of any filtration but you will be doing large water changes often. When people say you must do 10% a week for adequate removal of contaminates I laugh. The reason for is simple math. If you are replacing 10% a week you are only removing 10% that was added during that week. So your numbers will climb. You can do larger water changes more often and be perfectly fine. The issue comes in with larger tanks as the cost of salt will far outweigh the cost of a skimmer. Noise is really a non-issue these days then so is the technology on everything else. Its all in what you want.

 

[rossco]

This discussion popped up at a great time. I voted 'other' .

I have run skimmers from day one.

For the last 5 years , every summer I have had recession that started at the base that continued until total loss on many of my acros. Only fragging them stopped it once it started. This phenomena has happened to many of my friends who keep acros as well.

I had narrowed the potential cause to pH due to the house being closed up tight during out hot summers, forest fires, and something in the water during the summer months. I am pretty sure pH wasn't the problem as even with running the intake external and adding Kalk to my ATO, it still happens.

Last summer while I was on vacation a forest fire started and the smoke was heavy in my area, I had multiple acros brown out, lose all polyp extension and then most of them RTNed. Way more extreme and extensive than ever before.
As I had been chasing pH at the time, thinking that was my recurring problem due to the house being closed up all summer, last year was also the first year I ran the intake line for my skimmer outside, so my skimmer was sucking that smoky air into my tank while I was out of town. If I had known it was that bad I could have remotely shut the skimmer off via Apex.

Forest fires has always been in the back of my mind as a possible cause but I didn’t think much smoke was getting into the house. This year I have been keeping pretty close watch, but smoke has blown into the valley a couple times, and sure enough a couple acros showed the same symptoms. I am at this point pretty certain that forest fire smoke is at least a contributing factor. I am going to send in a sample of my RODI water just to make sure there isn't a summertime issue with the local water as well.

Anyway, long story short, as of 3 days ago I have taken the skimmer off line on all my tanks.

 

[tiggs]

I don't run a skimmer on my 14G cube, because the quality of the skimmers that would fit honestly aren't worth the real estate they would take up. On larger tanks, skimming is an absolute must, but on nanos, you're better off with large weekly water changes (I do 20% of total water volume).

Aside from nutrient export, skimmers obviously play a big part in aeration. If you're not running one, it's important that you make up for that with lots of flow and surface agitation.

 

[Redleg]

My current build is going to be without a skimmer. I just started cycling my large fuge/sump this week. the DT won't be up and running until Labor day weekend. The goal is to have a robust macro algae population established in advance of introducing any fish or corals. Rock and macro are going to be the main source of filtration. Nutrient export by macro and water changes. I have an old school air pump and lime wood air stones that run in the sump if needed for additional gas exchange.
One of the main reasons to go without a skimmer for me is budget. Since this is my first reef tank I want to get my feet wet before investing a large amount of cash. If or when a skimmer is needed or wanted for my setup I'll revisit my plan. Were I to buy one today I'd go with an old school Lifereef skimmer or a DIY counter current. All of these new style in sump needle wheels seem to be to finicky to setup and tune.

 

[Nopy117]

Nope, all my tanks are nano and sub 30g's

 

[joeyhatch11]

My 220 has a skimmer rated for 180g. But on both my 33L frag system and bar top nano with sump, they both do not run a skimmer. On the frag system I run a 20L with 10in long bubblier 24/7 and refugium. As for the bar top nano, I just run a mini refugium. Both refugiums just keep chaeto which does a great job and grows like crazy.

So I guess it depends on a couple things, whether or not you'll be able to run or want to run a skimmer. Id like to think that if you are running a refugium that is not all too necessary. Keeping in mind that your also monitoring your nitrates/phosphates and being aware of how much your feeding your tank. My 33L frag tank only houses a mated pair of clown fish and gets fed every other day frozen mysis. I've even seen people who are able to run a full basement style filtration setup and use a 40B or stock 55-75 tank for a GIANT refugium and dont bother with a skimmer. When dealing with a large water volume but having the ability to run a massive refugium properly sometime that alone would save you from having to purchase a massive skimmer.

 

[neupane00]

i wouldnt even think about running a tank without skimmer. For many reason, and one of the most important being air exchange.

 

[Gomi's Reef]

Am I the only person that think the gas exchange argument is invalid if you have a well sized (and lit) fuge?

 

[Scrubber_steve]

Am I the only person that think the gas exchange argument is invalid if you have a well sized (and lit) fuge?

I think a scrubbers better

 

[Gomi's Reef]

I think a scrubbers better

Maybe you're right. Never tried one before. Always thought they were too DaiY-ish for my skillset. I'm a good reefer but awful at DIY HAHHA

 

[Ron Reefman]

I just want to ask about a comment made several times in this thread by several people. They are absolutely correct that skimmers can and do aerate our tank water. But is that really allowing CO2 to escape and putting oxygen in? Color me skeptical at it being all that efficient.

To that point, I have read in several places that far more CO2 escapes our tank's water and far more oxygen gets into our tank's water through water movement at the water's surface than is done by a skimmer. I have always set my tanks up to have some obvious water movement at the surface. And over the past 3 months I've run my tank with a Brute as a sump and no skimmer. I saw no measured change in the oxygen level in my water.

20180622_143629 by Ron Lindensmith, on Flickr


I now have a new sump/refugium set up and I do have a new skimmer running as well. I'm not disagreeing that skimmers are a very useful tool for removing proteins and other materials. I'm just far less sure about just how efficiently they do aerate the water.

 

[Gomi's Reef]

I just want to ask about a comment made several times in this thread by several people. They are absolutely correct that skimmers can and do aerate our tank water. But is that really allowing CO2 to escape and putting oxygen in? Color me skeptical at it being all that efficient.

To that point, I have read in several places that far more CO2 escapes our tank's water and far more oxygen gets into our tank's water through water movement at the water's surface than is done by a skimmer. I have always set my tanks up to have some obvious water movement at the surface. And over the past 3 months I've run my tank with a Brute as a sump and no skimmer. I saw no measured change in the oxygen level in my water.

20180622_143629 by Ron Lindensmith, on Flickr


I now have a new sump/refugium set up and I do have a new skimmer running as well. I'm not disagreeing that skimmers are a very useful tool for removing proteins and other materials. I'm just far less sure about just how efficiently they do aerate the water.

Amen. I'm glad to see some evidence supporting this [emoji106][emoji106]